I hate to break it to you girls, but in my medical school we have ALL been instructed in our clinical communications class to ask those questions even if we have suspicions, or indeed KNOWLEGE, about someone's gender history!

This is because we are told that this is a considerate and tactful way of giving them the opportunity to open up if they want to without us having to ask "are you trans?" which would basically start the consult off on a very awkward feeling.

Now my medical school in the UK is federated with several schools around the world including one in the USA, and we all work to the same syllabus - so I think this isnt quite as solid a proof as you may think.

@Rejennyrated... This is exactly what my friend told me. She happens to be finnishing the specialization in gynecology at the moment.

Quote from: mmmmm on June 05, 2015, 06:51:22 AM
@Rejennyrated... This is exactly what my friend told me. She happens to be finnishing the specialization in gynecology at the moment.

Your friend speaks truth indeed - I've just done an Obs and Gynae rotation. I am really sorry folks - but it really is true. Many times when a clinician asks you that, they are just trying to be sensitive and non confrontational, as we have all been taught.

As an adjunct it may come as a surprise to some, but transgender medicine has been widely taught in medical schools even at undergraduate level for the last twenty years - which means that if you are dealing with a doctor under the age of say 45 the chances are they are better informed than they may choose to let on.

I think their is a good amount of people in the world that throw politeness out the window when dealing with trans people. I have a friend who just started testosterone therapy like a month ago. He already almost passes as cis and is really handsome. But the other day he was at a party and some ->-bleeped-<-s went through his wallet and found his license then referred to him as his old name then grabbed him and kissed him.

The thing is that the politeness argument only applies to decent people. Ones that will call us our name we want them to use and use the correct pronouns. We got to remember that only 52% of people believe that same sex marriage should be legal. I think that a smaller number have accepted trans identities. So with that in mind do you think that people that hate us and are disgusted by us would use the correct pronouns on us to be nice? It doesn't make sense. If you are out and about and people practically ignore you expect a guy or 2 check you out (that's for the girls) then you are probably passing as cis.

ReJennyrated,

I hope you don't mind. But I am going to print the following quote by you and frame it on my wall.

QuoteSo ultimately what this really reinforces is that obsession with passing is probably focusing on the wrong thing. It isn't healthy or helpful. Instead I suggest trying to focus more on being comfortable as yourself, and forgetting about what other people may or may not see. After all you are transitioning for your own benefit, not theirs, so do what makes you feel comfortable and don't worry about "them".

All my life, I've been so concerned about what people thought of me..to the point of being a phony many times just to try to "push" an image. It is the biggest hurdle for me to overcome. With the help of my therapist, I am making progress. And reading what you wrote is a big help. Thank you!

I just assume most people know that I am trans, and treat me well anyway, however I do put my best foot forward with grooming, voice, and mannerisms. Last month I was at my physicians office, and seeing a new Dr. For the first time; we were talking about some things, and I asked him about my prostate, he replied "you don't have one" and I replied "yes I do" he had a surprised look on his face and said that no one informed him. So, I guess everyone doesn't know, but I still think most do, which takes a lot of pressure off of me, because I don't have to constantly worry if I "do or don't".

Sometimes I feel people grab the wrong end of the stick. I'm a Caucasian, non-Christian  female who lives in a multicultural society. I accept everyone as being equal. If in doing that I meet a Christian male of a different ethnic background to me and I accept them as a fellow human being am I being polite or am I just doing what sensible people do?

People accept people because they are people; fellow human beings. What makes a person pass as human?

Please don't bother to answer!

I won't answer, I'll ask another question. I present as part male, part female. What is the criteria for me to "pass" and what should I be trying to "pass" as? And for who?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 05, 2015, 10:19:58 AM
I won't answer, I'll ask another question. I present as part male, part female. What is the criteria for me to "pass" and what should I be trying to "pass" as? And for who?

Hugs, Devlyn

I will answer that!

You pass as you, in all of your wonderful diversity which makes living on this world glorious. Because that is what humans should be. Diverse, different, accepted and loved.

Pretty simple really!

Quote from: Cindy on June 05, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
I will answer that!

You pass as you, in all of your wonderful diversity which makes living on this world glorious. Because that is what humans should be. Diverse, different, accepted and loved.

Pretty simple really!

Outta the park! Of course I pass as me, and that's all anyone needs to do. Insisting that we need to be taken as a woman or man in others eyes is something I just can't understand. I also consider the notion patently untrue.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Rejennyrated on June 05, 2015, 06:46:29 AM
I hate to break it to you girls, but in my medical school we have ALL been instructed in our clinical communications class to ask those questions even if we have suspicions, or indeed KNOWLEGE, about someone's gender history!

This is because we are told that this is a considerate and tactful way of giving them the opportunity to open up if they want to without us having to ask "are you trans?" which would basically start the consult off on a very awkward feeling.

Now my medical school in the UK is federated with several schools around the world including one in the USA, and we all work to the same syllabus - so I think this isnt quite as solid a proof as you may think.

I heard a female to male still needs pap smears unless he has a hysterectomy. Is this true?

Yes. And male to female need mammograms and prostate exams. Great isn't it! (That was sarcasm!)

Let's be careful. We can criticise medics for being perceived gatekeepers, but they also look after our health. Looking after the health of trans*people is hard.

I don't care if I truly pass or if people are just being polite. It's all good in my eyes.

For example, even though I don't pass, I had a big scary guy at U-haul ring me up for some boxes...as I moved to take the boxes out, he came around and asked if I needed help...I thought a moment, and said "Sure, thank you." We got out to my car, he put the boxes in and said, "Have a good day, ma'am."

Made me smile the rest of the day. Did he talk about me later with the other guys there? Don't know, not my problem. I was happy.

Thanks everybody for your responses, but, may I ask you a favor, one more time? Can we please stay on topic? The topic here is not whether you care it or not to pass. Again, I applaud you for not caring. The topic is about misreading politeness and taking it for passing.

Beth Andrea, kudos if you do not care. I do care, so, please let's focus on the topic.

Also, in my experience, it is not true that people will treat you the same of a cis woman even if they know you are trans. That doesn't happen that way, sorry. In fact, no matter how liberal people are, they still don't buy us for women

i know im not passing today, but just went to the VA here in el paso.  had to go through the metal detectors and a nice kid in uniform said "have a nice day maam!" and smiled at me.  my wife who was next in line, looked at him pissed and said, "HE will now!"  She had a big smirk on her face.. damn woman!

does it really matter if it's passing or politeness ? Humanity needs to evolve even through  the Cro  Magnon's would prefer eating raw meat. It would truly not matter if people treated each other as an evolve enlightened human and would naturally do without any second thought what so ever. I'm a proponent for the human race to release the chains of ignorance and truly become what nature intended for us. This stupidity of treating people different because their short ,not pretty , have the wrong color hair, lets cast away the shackles and reach for the explosive enlightenment that the universe intended for us. It just doesn't matter if it's "passing" or politeness, lets all reach for what we can become before the sun goes super nova.

Quote from: teresita on June 05, 2015, 12:35:14 PM
Thanks everybody for your responses, but, may I ask you a favor, one more time? Can we please stay on topic? The topic here is not whether you care it or not to pass. Again, I applaud you for not caring. The topic is about misreading politeness and taking it for passing.

It's kind of a moot point, because opinion and observation is in the eye of the beholder. So, there is really no way to know. All we have is speculation, and rationalization for how to keep a good attitude.

I think you're beating it into the bush a little bit. None of the comments seem that far off topic?

I guess the question of whether people treat us the same might also be off-topic, but I noticed personally that while people treated me differently at first, after a few weeks or months that went away and they started reacting to me like I've seen them do to cis friends (including catching guys ogling my cleavage when they thought I wasn't looking...). It helps that I stopped talking to most people who wanted to act like I wasn't a real woman. I do, admittedly, live in a very liberal area.

(These are all people who knew me pre-transition, which is why it might be drifting off topic; I think it's generally accepted that we can't "pass" to someone who already knows we're trans?)

Quote from: teresita on June 04, 2015, 09:14:54 PM
I am opening a different thread on a very specific topic: when people are polite and we take it as passing. For instance, I know someone who works in retail and she told me that anytime a trans person or cross-dresser comes, she refers to them as "she" even though the person is not passable. When the person in question leaves, usually, other workers make comments. To that person, this means passing because she was called "ma'am". Correct?

Another example: I thought I passed with a group of acquaitances. One of the girls treated me as nothing but a woman... we talked about period, pregnancy, even she asked me if I had a feminine napkin one. All of that, until I found out that, behind my back, they were referring to me as he, he/she or it.

I am not saying we should care or not. That is NOT my point here. My point is that it is virtually impossible to know if you are really passing or people are just pretending not to notice things.

Ok...given that it is "virtually impossible" to know if one truly passes, or others are simply being polite...what is the question? Or are you just making a statement?

What's wrong with "truly passing"?

What's wrong with "not passing"?

What about those of us who have no chance, or even desire, to pass? Are we wrong for this?

And given that few of us actually do "pass"...what can we do to not let it bother us? (And this one is a double-edged sword: those who do pass may not care for those of us who don't, while those who don't may not like the attitude of those who do)

So...what exactly are you asking?

I'm sorry I still don't get the relevance of this seeming conflict . You transition to heal yourself (period); So, because I find out my mother was just being nice to me and said that I pass , I should stop immediately becoming who I am.