One thing that is undeniable is that anyone over the age of 30 knows who Bruce Jenner was, so now that she has come out to the world, and in such dramatic fashion...people have a frame of reference for transgender people. Whether we like it or not, Caitlyn is making a sizable impact and is part of the zeitgeist.

i, too, think she is incredibly brave. The amount of media attention and pressure is hard to comprehend. Her trans journey is very unique to her, but I relate on some core levels.

Quote from: Sophie Lou on June 05, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
One thing that is undeniable is that anyone over the age of 30 knows who Bruce Jenner was, so now that she has come out to the world, and in such dramatic fashion...people have a frame of reference for transgender people. Whether we like it or not, Caitlyn is making a sizable impact and is part of the zeitgeist.

i, too, think she is incredibly brave. The amount of media attention and pressure is hard to comprehend. Her trans journey is very unique to her, but I relate on some core levels.

I couldn't agree more Sophie. I got the opportunity to provide a few "hints" to my sister over the weekend by mentioning Caitlyn. I left with a good feeling that, when I do come out to her completely, she will be accepting, if not fully supportive.

you say you want a revolution?

Quote from: kittenpower on June 08, 2015, 08:42:54 PM
you say you want a revolution?

You aint gonna to make it with anyone any how.

A friend sent me a link to an article from a Jamaican newspaper about Jenner. The comments were as expected for Jamaica. Don't read if you don't have stomach for it. I won't link it but look for "Caitlyn Jenner" in the Jamaica observer. Needless to say TRIGGER WARNING.

Trust me I am so glad I do not live there.

I voted no, because a celebrity transition doesn't somehow validate trans people. Society is still going to judge each of us individually based on our looks and merits.

What I think will happen is we will see an increase in openly trans and apparently trans individuals. The stealthy gals will more or less be happy to remain stealthy and when they as trans representatives are out of sight, they are out of mind. Society will dwell on the cross-section of trans persons that *are* visible which means the rest of us.

Am I right? or wrong?

idk. its just like any other revolution. I see it getting worse from this point, a total hellstorm, than after getting many of use who don't want to get involved or those of us who rather live our lives undisturbed, into this hellstorm, than there is a possibility that things might change. so i don't really know.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Well I was glad for it, because I knew my parents would see. They are coming along with accepting me now, so any public support like this is a good help.

The flipside of Caitlyn's tabloid appearance is it will be here today, and gone tomorrow. She is already an 'old news story' as far as the mass media are concerned.

That being said I'd like to check out her new show, if she does one :~)

Her transition in such a public way has already helped me.
I was texting with my ex asking how my kids were dealing with the sudden death of a close family friend and she said they were in denial about it. She has scheduled a session with a counselor. I then came out to her on my transgender issue and she said "I don't know what that means." I reference Caitlyn. She was a bit taken aback, but didn't react negatively. I asked if she could bring that up when they went to counseling and she was thinking the same thing.
So Caitlyn's transition has made for a shorthand when explaining to people.
The other nice thing is on Facebook, I can see that I must have good taste in friends as the majority have expressed support for Caitlyn, and for those who don't, I can use it to help educate.
I've only come out to a select few, but it has given me some confidence that I won't lose a lot of my friends. The fear in my head is almost always worse then the reality.



Ella

I was surprised. I don't recall any references whatsoever to Caitlyn Jenner among my Facebook friends. No positive comments, no negative comments. Nothing about the Duggars, either. My friends must not be hooked into current pop culture. Neither am I.

Last night, I had a personal moment where Caitlyn Jenner's coming out changed things for me.

I took my daughter and her husband to dinner for her birthday. This was the first time he had seen me since I transitioned and he thought I looked great and that I was "so much happier" than before.

My daughter has told her teenage daughter about me and I get to see her rarely but I can't go over to my daughter's house because she had not told her younger son (10 years old). She's been slowly trying to explain the entire LGBT thing but wasn't sure it was sticking with him, especially about trans people.

When Caitlyn Jenner came out, it was all over TV and the news. My grandson asked about this and she explained how Caitlyn was trans and she showed her son pictures of Caitlyn before transition, explaining that Caitlyn had been one of the most famous athletes in the world years ago.

She then told me that he looked at the before picture, looked at the after picture, and said "She's pretty!" She asked him what he thought of this. He replied "If that's what she has to do to be happy then she should!" (He gendered her correctly from the outset. Happy!)

Such a positive response almost had her tell him right then and there. But she's going to delay a bit longer, because she's spending some vacation time with my wife's family and all of them have rejected me. She said she just didn't want her son bringing it up with "those people" and her having to fight about the issue for a couple weeks while visiting.

So she's going to tell him when they get back from that vacation, which is about the time I head to Thailand for my GRS surgery, but she affirmed to me that "When you get back, he'll know, and we want you to start coming over again and just hanging out with us, having dinner, and such."

I was thrilled. And this happened because Caitlyn Jenner was a positive topic in the news.

I realize this is anecdotal and not statistical across a wide body of people, but for me this was important, and for me, Caitlyn Jenner's coming out has turned into a personal blessing.

I initially said the revelation would be positive by and large, but then I read Elinor Burkett's highly visible transphobic piece in the New York Times, which is reactionary TERF rhetoric that many commenters viewed as 'refreshing' and 'clarifying.' Fortunately, there has been a backlash against Burkett, but what is dangerous to me is the fact that the illogical, circular, essentialist, TERF reasoning of this article was so widely embraced by readers of the NYT, a paper that is not exactly FOX News. I have linked the piece here if you want to check it out. I still think the Jenner narrative is positive for us in the big picture, but the backlash is certainly with us on both the left and the right, as these conservative transphobic ideas are being embraced by 'liberals.'

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190134.0.html

EDIT: Replace external link with link to news thread

-------- Trigger warning ------

I admit there is some valid points and some not so valid points. Ok don't demonize me but as a mtf I will never experience a period which is a womens right of passage. But there was some comments made in that article that were contradictory too such as I am a woman because fear of being attacked or the wage disparity. Both those are social contructs that would effect a mtf just as it does a cis woman. I might be the odd one but truly as a mtf I will never ever be a cis woman I get that but then again the sum of the parts I sure might be a woman. In a sense the article was saying that what makes a woman is her experience and that a trans mtf could not experience the same thing yet in actuality they sure do but with the experience of a man in the past. The problem is the current state of society we as mtf for the most part try to fit in as woman since we are mostly that however in essence I get it we will also have the experiences of being a man so in a sense the best description for us is transwomen. The bugger is society in general doesn't accept transgender so the problem is if and big if we had acceptance for us then the threat to the idea that we are threating the cis population man/womanhood would be muted. I agree there are some in the trans community that are in a way taking it too far for the sake of getting rights and yet there are some that well basically lets live together in peace.

Just opinion and do realize its touchy in that what we are trying to do is fight for what we believe in but do we have to step on other parties to do so I wish it wasn't so.

My apologies if this seems offensive not my intent in a sense transgender have their own identity just as much as cis and deserve no more or less justification.

Quote from: Jen72 on June 09, 2015, 12:44:02 PM
-------- Trigger warning ------

I admit there is some valid points and some not so valid points. Ok don't demonize me but as a mtf I will never experience a period which is a womens right of passage. But there was some comments made in that article that were contradictory too such as I am a woman because fear of being attacked or the wage disparity. Both those are social contructs that would effect a mtf just as it does a cis woman. I might be the odd one but truly as a mtf I will never ever be a cis woman I get that but then again the sum of the parts I sure might be a woman. In a sense the article was saying that what makes a woman is her experience and that a trans mtf could not experience the same thing yet in actuality they sure do but with the experience of a man in the past. The problem is the current state of society we as mtf for the most part try to fit in as woman since we are mostly that however in essence I get it we will also have the experiences of being a man so in a sense the best description for us is transwomen. The bugger is society in general doesn't accept transgender so the problem is if and big if we had acceptance for us then the threat to the idea that we are threating the cis population man/womanhood would be muted. I agree there are some in the trans community that are in a way taking it too far for the sake of getting rights and yet there are some that well basically lets live together in peace.

Just opinion and do realize its touchy in that what we are trying to do is fight for what we believe in but do we have to step on other parties to do so I wish it wasn't so.

My apologies if this seems offensive not my intent in a sense transgender have their own identity just as much as cis and deserver no more or less justification.

Not all women are able to menstruate; the article itself cautions against reducing women to their bodies. Menstruation, as a bodily function, is therefore an illogical defining attribute of womanhood according to Birkett's logic. Many ciswomen do, obviously, but it is not something that defines ciswomanhood universally.

Nor does 'experience' of socialisation. There is no universal experience of womanhood growing up. This is essentialism and romanticism. A ciswoman who was raised to be a 'boy' by her parents, who had wanted a male child, would not be classified as a 'male' by Burkett, I don't think. Therefore, she is being reduced to her body again, yet--see above. The reasoning in the article is entirely circular and illogical from a philosophical point of view, and it is non-empathetic from a broader human point of view.

And the article is about womanhood broadly; I think many of us, myself included, would say we are women, and I also say I am a 'transwoman' when talking about my identity from a specific sociocultural lens and wish to emphasise my trans-ness. Otherwise, I am simply a woman. And Jenner is simply called a 'woman' by the articles fighting back against Burkett's reactionary claims.

To be clear, none of this is meant to start a triggering discussion; I posted this article simply because it was a highly visible manifestation of one result of the Jenner media narrative, and I am glad that many others have posted news pieces taking apart the article's faulty logic. Do not be sucked in by the logical falsehoods in it. These backlashes are to be expected--but look at the positive, that others are defending Jenner and inclusive feminism and inclusive womanhood. This is a good thing.

Your right it is full of holes and I happen to come back thinking that what I was trying to say really is that transwomen are no less a woman then a cis but with different experience history so a bit different. Not triggered by it myself other then to make me think which is good thing. I am sure as things progress the mudslinging will ensue its part of war well this kind of war anyway. Untill the dust settles and reason finally wins.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on June 09, 2015, 12:05:44 PM
I initially said the revelation would be positive by and large, but then I read Elinor Burkett's highly visible transphobic piece in the New York Times, which is reactionary TERF rhetoric that many commenters viewed as 'refreshing' and 'clarifying.' Fortunately, there has been a backlash against Burkett, but what is dangerous to me is the fact that the illogical, circular, essentialist, TERF reasoning of this article was so widely embraced by readers of the NYT, a paper that is not exactly FOX News. I have linked the piece here if you want to check it out. I still think the Jenner narrative is positive for us in the big picture, but the backlash is certainly with us on both the left and the right, as these conservative transphobic ideas are being embraced by 'liberals.'

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190169.0.html

EDIT: Replace external link with link to news thread

Burkett's piece and the reaction to it scares me.

In my opinion it is HATE.

She is denying that we are internally wired to be our identified gender. Spreading lies about a group of people meets the definition of hate. I hope our community vigorously points out the false points.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 09, 2015, 01:29:38 PM
Burkett's piece and the reaction to it scares me.

In my opinion it is HATE.

She is denying that we are internally wired to be our identified gender. Spreading lies about a group of people meets the definition of hate. I hope our community vigorously points out the false points.

The link seems to be wrong--it brought me to a story about a trans athlete in a cross-country race.

I agree that it is hate. Burkett is from the old school of exclusionary feminism--which is no feminism worthy of the name, to me. There have been some responses from transwomen. I wrote a response to it, as well, but do not know if it will be picked up. I just wanted our voices to be heard and her falsehoods exposed because, honestly, it's not even solely a question of her politics; even just from a purely logical perspective, her article makes no sense. It's like someone saying they support regulation in one sentence and don't want regulation in the next and then saying that is her argument because of regulation. Quite impoverished, really, but ignorance about trans* issues is so high that people are willing to buy incoherent nonsense if it's housed in seemingly 'smart' language on a seemingly legit forum, the NYT. Oh, well. This, too, shall pass.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on June 09, 2015, 01:40:07 PM
The link seems to be wrong--it brought me to a story about a trans athlete in a cross-country race.

Sorry. I hope it's fixed now. I modified it because we normally don't allow links to external articles except in the news area, and there only according to the posted format.