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The feminist Transgender Debate - and its blind spots

Started by ToniB, June 15, 2015, 02:41:54 AM

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ToniB

This article by Cathy Young for the Boston Globe is thought provoking

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/06/12/the-feminist-transgender-debate-and-its-blind-spots/XFWwZf741PJEBtSmIInhKI/story.html

By Cathy Young
June 12, 2015

"The recent unveiling of Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) Jenner has put transgender issues in the spotlight — but also reignited an often bitter debate among feminists. In a New York Times op-ed, journalist Elinor Burkett expressed support for Jenner's transition but voiced concern that ->-bleeped-<- may be promoting sex stereotypes and erasing female identity. While Burkett's dissent has resonated with many, others accuse her of bigotry and of promoting a narrow, exclusionary version of feminism. In fact, both sides in this debate have valid issues — and major blind spots.
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We cannot seem to Win If we cannot get the support of the female population as MTF we are even more exposed


Toni Bowers
The girl inside is just as important expecially to Yourself :)
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Ms Grace

Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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stephaniec

equality is the proper goal, but the problem in my view is the tremendous obstacle of truly understanding being transgender. It seems to me her examples were the normal example the population has of being transgender . There is a deep wound in a transgender person that's hard to explain. How can you explain the deep pain of being wrong. I've suffered my whole life with this pain, I really can't explain, I just experience it every nanosecond of life. How can you explain the need to cry every waking moment.
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BenKenobi

People seem to wonder if gender roles are the only thing that's a factor and put so much focus on MtF that they forget about FtM. Caitlyn has gotten so much media attention but I don't remember that much hype over Chaz (maybe because i was young).

If they really want to understand the transgender mind I think they should pay attention to the whole spectrum and not simply 'oh this man wants to wear a dress, how bold!" as what discussions are basically being boiled down to.

It's a shame science hasn't quite caught up and the bit that's there people, ignore.
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Dee Marshall

No, Ben, there was no big media storm when Chaz Bono came out. People either get FTM better or they indulge you folks. You'd know which better than I.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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ChiGirl

There was certainly not as much hype over Chaz, although there certainly was hype.  I think it's generally more acceptable to a woman to be more like a man than a man to be like a woman.  It's part of our misogynistic culture: men are a step up from women. 

I hate when people argue that if we tore down our current gender expectations, than transgender people wouldn't need to transition.  Or ask if transgender people would even exist then.  Um, yeah we would.  Maybe some of us wouldn't feel the need to transition, but somehow people don't seem to get gender dysphoria.  I would rather wear t-shirt and jeans and be seen as a woman than wear makeup and a dress and be seen as a man.  (That's assuming gender expression is neutral in my hypothetical world)

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Jen72

Ben I think you are right but at the same time I think realistically of course all people see is what they see. What I mean by that and why chaz being ftm if not mistaken might be this. It is more socially acceptable to be a tomboy then a sissy.

As well the hard part is just what I said its what people see first they for example see the man in a dress first then don't think or want to see how he/she acts or of course cant see how he/she thinks. The ones that hate the most are the ones that judge more on what they see before them they understand nothing more then just what they see. Ones that support us more look to who we really are on then mental or even how we just act aspect. Sadly that judging does go both ways but I think for mtf its a lot more what people see and for ftm they judge more on actions. Of course neither view is really right in a sense you shouldn't judge to you actually know the person or at the very least their actions/thoughts. And judge yourself before you judge others really.

I think both extremes are scared most of mtf. The macho male is afraid he cant show a feminine trait he has for fear omg I am mtf. The feminist that argues that mtf are a threat to womanhood are fearful of losing what they have fought for thinking that mtf are just males usurping what it is to be female. It the fear part when taken away would create an equilibrium.

Just opinion on what peoples opinions seem to be about and not everyone is that extreme either after all humanity is about uniqueness is it not.
For every day that stings better days it brings.
For every road that ends another will begin.

From a song called "Master of the Wind"" by Man O War.

I my opinions hurt anyone it is NOT my intent.  I try to look at things in a neutral manner but we are all biased to a degree.  If I ever post anything wrong PLEASE correct me!  Human after all.
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Asche

I was a little bothered by the references to "transgender dogma" and the overemphasis on the more sensational claims by some trans people and trans advocates.  Not too different from how non-feminists will get obsessed with Andrea Dworkin (or rather, with misquotes of Andrea Dworkin) and Mary Daly, as if they represented the mainstream of feminism.  There's a lot of homework that one needs to do to be able to present trans issues and trans controversies with any perspective, and she clearly hasn't done it.

There's been quite a bit of discussion in the comment threads of a few articles over on "Butterflies and Wheels", at freethoughtblogs.com .  The blog owner (Ophelia Benson) is not terribly trans-sensitive, but there are a number of trans feminist and trans-aware feminists posting comments, and their comments are much better than this.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



CPTSD
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IdontEven

I've come to the conclusion that if trans people are a threat to your movement then equality isn't what you seek.

Could be wrong.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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Paige

#9
I think I prefer this article about the Burkett piece by Brynn Tannehill.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190395.0.html

Paige :)

EDIT: replaced external link with internal link
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Gabrielle_22

I like Young's assessment. I have considerable issues with Burkett's reactionary TERF claims; at the same time, radical linguistic policing does not help our movement. I have no issues seeing the Vagina Monologues pre-op; I am happily able to accept that I am a woman, but I am *also* a transwoman, and I am not here to deny that I have had some different experiences from many other women. We are all women in the same building; we can have different conversations in different rooms when our experiences do not intersect, and conversations in the same room when they do, all while retaining our womanhood. I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some people.

I did take issue with the 'transgender dogma' comment, but this may be more poor phrasing than anything else.

My main concern is what the article outlines early: that many people identified with Burkett's comments. Transphobia, even a relatively polite form of it, is something that unfortunately unites people on both sides of the political spectrum at times. And I admit that since Burkett's article, I have been paranoid that people I know, and will meet in the future, will treat me as a woman out of politeness rather than conviction (if I am open about being trans* and do not pass perfectly, that is). The Dolezal 'transracial' scandal, therefore, could not have appeared at a worse time, as people who are already ignorant about trans* issues are simply invalidating our experience now by comparing us to her fabrications, ignoring that there is a science of being trans* but not one of being 'transracial' because such a thing is neither properly defined nor likely to realistically exist.

Quote from: BenKenobi on June 15, 2015, 09:31:07 AM
People seem to wonder if gender roles are the only thing that's a factor and put so much focus on MtF that they forget about FtM. Caitlyn has gotten so much media attention but I don't remember that much hype over Chaz (maybe because i was young).

If they really want to understand the transgender mind I think they should pay attention to the whole spectrum and not simply 'oh this man wants to wear a dress, how bold!" as what discussions are basically being boiled down to.

It's a shame science hasn't quite caught up and the bit that's there people, ignore.

I agree that FTMs have gotten far too little attention in all this. I think the reasons are many, unfortunately: there is still a sense of privilege for many people whereby it is 'good' for a woman to 'want' to become a man due to unspoken male privilege, but it is, by contrast, sensationalistic and perplexing to these same persons for a 'man' to give up male privilege; the sensationalism around transwomen, particularly those who do not pass well, is so great that it has almost erased the opposite, the idea of FTMs passing as male, and as a result many people are only peripherally aware FTMs exist at all; FTMs are often mixed up with butch lesbians by ignorant people, a form of erasure; the surgeries for transwomen are generally more visible in the media and more readily viable for now from science, and, beyond that, gender reassignment surgery for MTFs is seen, again, as a loss of 'male privilege' through a kind of castration, which makes it sensationalistic in a way that does not fully correspond to GRS for FTMs, etc. Basically, subconscious ideas about privilege and what qualifies as 'sensaitonal.'

None of this is fair and I think we need far more equal coverage, but to me there are many problematic reasons why the media did not sensationalise Chaz Bono as much as Caitlyn Jenner, despite both coming from celebrity. Hopefully we are, despite transphobic commentary, moving towards a world of broader acceptance.
"The time will come / when, with elation / you will greet yourself arriving / at your own door, in your own mirror / and each will smile at the other's welcome, / and say, sit here. Eat. / You will love again the stranger who was your self./ Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart / to itself, to the stranger who has loved you / all your life, whom you ignored" - Walcott, "Love after Love"
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gennee

Quote from: BenKenobi on June 15, 2015, 09:31:07 AM
People seem to wonder if gender roles are the only thing that's a factor and put so much focus on MtF that they forget about FtM. Caitlyn has gotten so much media attention but I don't remember that much hype over Chaz (maybe because i was young).

If they really want to understand the transgender mind I think they should pay attention to the whole spectrum and not simply 'oh this man wants to wear a dress, how bold!" as what discussions are basically being boiled down to.

It's a shame science hasn't quite caught up and the bit that's there people, ignore.

Ben, the science has always been there; it's just that this information has been totally ignored or kept under wraps. Scientists have known that there are many forms of gender expression and identity. They didn't put a name to it or understand why it was but it was there.

I'm not into semantics because it can digress from the real issues. I agree that there wasn't that great a buzz about Chaz Bono's transition as there was to Caitlyn Jenner's. It's probably because men are held in a different light than woman. 
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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