A friend posted this on his Facebook wall, a very thoughtful, compassionate, and wise man, about his thoughts regarding trans women, what he has found about dating trans women. I urge each of you to consider what he wrote thoughtfully. I cut-and-pasted this with his permission, but if he wishes to register here and identify himself, that's fine. What I really want to focus on are the thoughts of a heterosexual man, who loves women and has learned that he loves trans women as well. (Note: He actually finds trans women fascinating as people, as having depth of character, and strengths that he never expected to find.)

Your responses and ideas are encouraged and welcomed. His thoughts follow. Thank you in advance for your ideas and comments.

"Ryder was discussing Caitlyn and also violence against Transgender women. I haven't really commented on Caitlyn as I at first thought it was a publicity stunt, then the first interview was good yet it gave indications that Bruce was going to be a "Guy in a Dress", scary thoughts. The introduction of Caitlyn showed true beauty and a lot of straight guys found themselves very attracted, Yes Caitllyn basically has unlimited funds, a rare advantage, but the term Transgender and the night and day change of Bruce => Caitlyn is now quite public. Now to watch the storms pass.

Well I think Caitlyn is a positive for acceptance, just as Laverne, Janet Mock, Carmen Carrera, and Andreja Pejic are. It is not perfect but more and more men are being exposed to the concept of transgender women, finding they are attracted, and start to resolve it. It is that huge bug a boo of "Can't be Gay" that makes guys crazy, leading to violence. It needs to be worked out in society that it is OK and straight to be attracted to trans women, and the violence is uncalled for.

Society has been far easier on Lesbian as well as the quite common tom boy of a girl being herself basically as a boy, with nary an eyebrow raised. There is really no one threatened by a FTM, One might think it is weird, but no rush to violence.

Boys and men have been conditioned since infants to "not be Gay", "can't be gay", shamed not to be gay. Although I feel and fully believe that being with a woman or trans woman is quite straight, I know nearly every man has to resolve this and their friends judge them to that standard until they are enlightened as well.

I think it is the guys that find themselves very attracted to trans women but cannot resolve their own acceptance of that attraction that become violent. Those that are not attracted are not fighting this conflict. The discussion of Transgender so publicly I think is building awareness and acceptance. Sorry for the rambling."

They don't fully see us as women.

Julia Serrano called that "ungendering" - taking away someone's gender with respect to their sexual attractiveness.

Alas, I fear that we will gain strides in just about every other part of life, but not the bedroom. People will see us as fully, completely, totally women everywhere but there.

If men see us as people they are attracted to then we have a good starting point for a relationship and I don't see why it can't be possible. As with all relationships t just depends on how mature and respectful both parties are.


And I'm just posting this warning before anybody heads down the path of bashing on "->-bleeped-<-s" or saying things like "all men who like trans women are ->-bleeped-<-s" - don't. There are trans women in loving relationships with straight cis males.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 07, 2015, 09:02:33 PM
If men see us as people they are attracted to then we have a good starting point for a relationship and I don't see why it can't be possible. As with all relationships t just depends on how mature and respectful both parties are.


And I'm just posting this warning before anybody heads down the path of bashing on "->-bleeped-<-s" or saying things like "all men who like trans women are ->-bleeped-<-s" - don't. There are trans women in loving relationships with straight cis males.

Can we say all men are perverted creepos and lack common decency when talking to women?  Cause I'm gonna be upset if we can't...

I don't agree with that being the case. The straight CIS male I'm in a relationship isn't that way. He is so considerate and understanding of my needs and wants that even puts his own needs on ice for me. So no not all men are that way. Hug
Mariah

Quote from: marsh monster on June 07, 2015, 09:14:13 PM
Can we say all men are perverted creepos and lack common decency when talking to women?  Cause I'm gonna be upset if we can't...

I think his words hit to the heart of the matter. Men are often afraid of being labeled gay. This man went through a lot of soul searching to reach the point he's at now but I think he has a point, that men need to get beyond this hangup.

And some clearly have, as this guy demonstrates, or as Mariah's BF demonstrates.

What I wonder is if there is anything we can do to help a man get past that hangup or is it entirely something they have to figure out on their side of the fence?

Time, patience, understanding, and even space have been huge keys in my relationship. It takes time and space to process this and it's not easy. Be open and honest when answering their questions. Be there for them. We can't figure it out for them unfortunately they have figure it out. All we can do is be supportive, loving and understanding while that plays out along with answering their questions. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: LizMarie on June 07, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
I think his words hit to the heart of the matter. Men are often afraid of being labeled gay. This man went through a lot of soul searching to reach the point he's at now but I think he has a point, that men need to get beyond this hangup.

And some clearly have, as this guy demonstrates, or as Mariah's BF demonstrates.

What I wonder is if there is anything we can do to help a man get past that hangup or is it entirely something they have to figure out on their side of the fence?

I think naturally, cis men attract to woman and transwoman or anything that look like woman, that how men are. It just if they can overcame the social frame or not. I use to take my cis friend to Asian SF Club in San Francisco where there are alot of trans entertainer. I didn't told my friend that those girls are trans and he have no clue. He's really love those girls and he's really enjoy it. After we left, I told him that all the girls he try to hit on are all trans. He kidda cool, but he have a bit struggle about his straightness,  Period...

Mod Edit- Ridiculing anyone is against TOS 5.

Two facts are simply not widely known:
being tg has biological connections. So its not made up but how people feel.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186458.msg1664590.html#msg1664590
and its nobodys fault, neither theirs nor someones upbringing nor the internet or whatever.... its simply a biological condition...

And a connection with xy is not decisive. Hormones are. With hormones, skin changes properties.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,149304.msg1682002.html#msg1682002
"Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more ....
It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina..."


hugs

Quote from: Naeree on June 08, 2015, 07:50:09 AM
I think naturally, cis men attract to woman and transwoman or anything that look like woman, that how men are. It just if they can overcame the social frame or not. I use to take my cis friend to Asian SF Club in San Francisco where there are alot of trans entertainer. I didn't told my friend that those girls are trans and he have no clue. He's really love those girls and he's really enjoy it. After we left, I told him that all the girls he try to hit on are all trans. He kidda cool, but he have a bit struggle about his straightness, Period...

Mod Edit- Ridiculing anyone is against TOS 5.

Hahaha you rock girl!

I understand the anger and concern about men's attitudes towards tranwomen, but I think grouping all men is a mistake.
For that matter, there are cis women who can't get past the fact than transgender men are males. Maybe men are more vocal about it, but in my experience, there are many cis women who do the same thing.

When I came out at the job I was in when i transitioned, I got more negative comments from cis women than I did from cis guys. One woman whom I had been friends with, laughed when others thought she was interested in me. "How can you be thinking of dating a girl in drag?" Another told me point blank that women cannot be men regardless of how they felt about themselves or what surgeries they had. My ex, a cis woman, initially accepted the fact that I was a man, but once we were married, gave me nothing but grief about every physical comparison, every action etc.

To be fair, I think that there are both cis women and cis men who regard us as frauds, weird and just acting like the gender opposite of our genetic gender. Its a fact that we all have to deal with and something we need to work on to get over. Lets not give the hecklers any more power to hurt us with their thoughtless comments. There are both cis men and cis woman who are loving, attentive, intelligent and can look past what we have gone through and accept us as the gender we really are.

sam1234

Lol, I cannot even find anyone who would be interested to date- all they are interested in is sex.

Quote from: LizMarie on June 07, 2015, 04:27:02 PM
Society has been far easier on Lesbian as well as the quite common tom boy of a girl being herself basically as a boy, with nary an eyebrow raised. There is really no one threatened by a FTM, One might think it is weird, but no rush to violence.

I agree with what the others have said regarding transwomen generally, but I take some issue with this generalisation about FTMS. Firstly, there is certainly discrimination and raising of eyebrows; consider the case of two FTMs who were ejected from a public restroom in Seattle in 2007 and led down escalators by a security guard while shoppers gawked at them. Consider the considerable online backlash, too, against Aydian Dowling, the transman who may appear on the cover of Men's Health; yes, he has received great support, but I have read many, many articles about him to see the comments people would leave, and there is a lot of negativity towards him and, more broadly, towards FTMs for the use of testosterone, as the latter, according to many transphobic commenters, would make a transman 'unnaturally' muscular and would essentially be equivalent to taking steroids. And there are countless stories of familial rejection, especially from mothers, of FTMs, due, partly, to the idea that one's 'daughter' is disappearing and, also, to a general lack of understanding for what FTMs actually can gain by transitioning, as their surgeries are not in any really equivalent state at present to what MTFs at least have the possibility of getting. And there are many pre-op FTMs who have significant anxiety about dating due to their genitalia.

So, I think that statement needs nuance. Sure, there are some things that could be construed as easier for FTMs--voice dropping from testosterone, the chance to gain male privilege if one passes, an arguably greater ease for visually passing in some arenas. But I think the reality is far more complex than 'nary an eyebrow raised.'

As far as transwomen relationships with cismen go, I think it can go in two separate categorical directions: the cismale is heterosexual, as we are simply women like any other (easier for many men to accept this if we are post-op, I would guess); or the cismale is pansexual, able to love 'everyone,' with this designation implying that we are--or some of us are--not binary in our gender but rather somewhere else on the spectrum. A two-spirit MTF, for instance, might consider their lover pansexual rather than heterosexual, even if they might use the designation 'MTF' for simplicity.

So, basically, I generally agree, but, as with much in life, nuance helps here because even 'transwoman' can convey many different things.

Quote from: LizMarie on June 07, 2015, 04:27:02 PM
A friend posted this on his Facebook wall, a very thoughtful, compassionate, and wise man, about his thoughts regarding trans women, what he has found about dating trans women. I urge each of you to consider what he wrote thoughtfully. I cut-and-pasted this with his permission, but if he wishes to register here and identify himself, that's fine. What I really want to focus on are the thoughts of a heterosexual man, who loves women and has learned that he loves trans women as well. (Note: He actually finds trans women fascinating as people, as having depth of character, and strengths that he never expected to find.)

Your responses and ideas are encouraged and welcomed. His thoughts follow. Thank you in advance for your ideas and comments.

"Ryder was discussing Caitlyn and also violence against Transgender women. I haven't really commented on Caitlyn as I at first thought it was a publicity stunt, then the first interview was good yet it gave indications that Bruce was going to be a "Guy in a Dress", scary thoughts. The introduction of Caitlyn showed true beauty and a lot of straight guys found themselves very attracted, Yes Caitllyn basically has unlimited funds, a rare advantage, but the term Transgender and the night and day change of Bruce => Caitlyn is now quite public. Now to watch the storms pass.

Well I think Caitlyn is a positive for acceptance, just as Laverne, Janet Mock, Carmen Carrera, and Andreja Pejic are. It is not perfect but more and more men are being exposed to the concept of transgender women, finding they are attracted, and start to resolve it. It is that huge bug a boo of "Can't be Gay" that makes guys crazy, leading to violence. It needs to be worked out in society that it is OK and straight to be attracted to trans women, and the violence is uncalled for.

Society has been far easier on Lesbian as well as the quite common tom boy of a girl being herself basically as a boy, with nary an eyebrow raised. There is really no one threatened by a FTM, One might think it is weird, but no rush to violence.

Boys and men have been conditioned since infants to "not be Gay", "can't be gay", shamed not to be gay. Although I feel and fully believe that being with a woman or trans woman is quite straight, I know nearly every man has to resolve this and their friends judge them to that standard until they are enlightened as well.

I think it is the guys that find themselves very attracted to trans women but cannot resolve their own acceptance of that attraction that become violent. Those that are not attracted are not fighting this conflict. The discussion of Transgender so publicly I think is building awareness and acceptance. Sorry for the rambling."

To my knowledge, I haven't attracted a single gay man since initiating transition, yet I get cat-called pretty regularly by presumably straight men... None have found out.  Although, the two men in my life, since I transitioned, who have been associated with me in a more emotional sort of way were certainly both straight.  We are females, and at least some men are accepting this.

Ally

All amazing and thoughtful answers. Thank you!

I think the bottom line is with the individual. Whether its a cis male with a transwoman or a transman with a cis woman, there will always be those who are afraid of being labeled gay or lesbian. Acceptance of a transgender being the gender they identify with comes with maturity and healthy self esteem.

Being male or female is not just about sex. Explaining the difference is very difficult and not altogether tangible. If a cis male or female is in the military, steps on a mine and blows off their genitals, no one would say that they were no longer the same gender because they don't have the "right parts".

Depending on how private an individual is, they don't need to tell anyone that they are transgender. The only people who really need to know are medical personel and someone in a relationship. I don't believe its wrong to be open and out completely. The activists, at least the ones who trying to push for new laws, are needed as well as the private transgenders. Without them, we would not have some of the rights we do now. They are responsible for putting forth normal behavior though, because they are the ones that the public will see and being radical is no help.

In the nineties, when I was married but still in my home state, my ex's father could not get past my being a transgender. He would talk about watching a porn movie that had a beautiful woman, only to find that when she took her clothes off, she had a penis. That sort of thing, for those who watch porn, only reinforces the idea that we are perverts.

Whether cis male or cis female, there are some who can get past the fact that our genitals are surgically made and come to understand that we are men and women. Once they can do that, then they can love a transgender without questioning whether or not we are what we say we are.

sam1234

My experience tells me that most of the men could accept a transwoman for friendship or beeing colleges, but they would never start a partnership. Its like beeing gay - its no problem, as long its not in my own family.

I had a couple of men i didnt told that i'm trans ... after a few weeks or month of writing, etc. i told them i'm a transwomen. From one second to another all the "magic between man and woman" was away. Its hard to explain - most of the men have these "allday-flirting" with women ... but they dont have it with transwomen. I mean i ask these men about the reasons and they told me they arent gay and dont want to flirting with another man. I would lieing about my gender the told me.

It doesnt matters if you are pre or postOP, how you look, speak ... born as XY means "man" (or no real woman) for lifetime for the most men outthere.

Quote from: galaxy on June 17, 2015, 05:36:37 AM
My experience tells me that most of the men could accept a transwoman for friendship or beeing colleges, but they would never start a partnership. Its like beeing gay - its no problem, as long its not in my own family.

I had a couple of men i didnt told that i'm trans ... after a few weeks or month of writing, etc. i told them i'm a transwomen. From one second to another all the "magic between man and woman" was away. Its hard to explain - most of the men have these "allday-flirting" with women ... but they dont have it with transwomen. I mean i ask these men about the reasons and they told me they arent gay and dont want to flirting with another man. I would lieing about my gender the told me.

It doesnt matters if you are pre or postOP, how you look, speak ... born as XY means "man" (or no real woman) for lifetime for the most men outthere.

This is from the wiki :

... the idea proposed by Harry Benjamin, that gender is hard-wired in the brain before birth. ... an intersex condition, a congenital birth issue unseen by others due to its location in the brain: a mis-match in the sex of a person between that of the brain and that of the body.

And straight men are usually attracted by feminine vibes (also conveyed by language)... not chromosomes (which are an inactive marker after birth in most cells).

hugs