Yesterday I opened up to my best friend and her husband about everything, stating my case why I feel I'm a woman. Almost every example he shot down with a "so? I did that too" (e.g. played with dolls, dress up, etc) and now I'm doubting myself even more. How does one win against arguments like that? How does one justify one is trans?

:'-(

Jessica

Big hug! You don't have to justify it. Accept yourself and go, the world will follow you. Trust me on this one. 

Hugs, Devlyn

His arguing style was designed to put you into a position of trying to justify yourself - it was bullying. You do not have to justify yourself to anyone. I would suggest dumping those people and finding new friends that accept you.

Quote from: Jessica_W on June 24, 2015, 10:20:10 AM
Yesterday I opened up to my best friend and her husband about everything, stating my case why I feel I'm a woman. Almost every example he shot down with a "so? I did that too" (e.g. played with dolls, dress up, etc) and now I'm doubting myself even more. How does one win against arguments like that? How does one justify one is trans?

:'-(

Jessica

Being trans isn't about what we do or did. It's about who we are. I never crossdressed or played with doll, for example.

My brain is wired to need to be a woman. All my adult life, I wished I had been born a woman. When I finally realized it was possible, there was, literally, no stopping me.

Has he done THAT?

Hi Jessica,

Suzi kind of nailed it, it's not about what we've done or haven't done, but how you feel inside, how you perceive yourself. Self-doubt? Everyone goes through that, but the point about justifying to someone else isn't exactly so depending how far you want to transition, how far you need to transition. For hormones you may be able to do informed consent. However if you are considering SRS most surgeons follow the WPATH SOC and require a couple of letters.

BTW, congratulations on coming out to your friends. That alone requires a huge amount of courage. Don't let them discourage you. If you can, start seeing a therapist who can guide you along the journey.

Anyway, glad you found us and know you're among friends here.

Hugs,

Well said! Thank you for your kind words of wisdom. It has helped emensely! :-)

I agree 100% with these nice replies. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone but the mirror as you work through this and engage in self-reflection.

It is reasonable to be patient and give good friends some time to work through the new information you've shared with them. For those with no experience with the transgender world, they will be confronted with really thinking about the concept of gender as it relates to their own identity, and how they relate in this world through the lens of gender. To those mature friends who are confident and comfortable with their own self, your coming out will be something they can manage without too much difficulty. As for the others, being trans is difficult, but it is a very useful tool in determining which people are worth having in your life, and which turn out to be insecure, untrustworthy people that do not deserve to have you as a friend.

Good luck.

As others have said, there is no need to justify yourself to others. There arguments are setup with no way to win them and it's best not to get caught in those situations when you can because it's pure bulling on their part. Hugs
Mariah

People always try to shoot down the "standard narrative" because their own lives, or people they might have known, overlap in some way or another. It doesn't mean you're any less trans because of it, and anyone that tries to challenge your identity, trans or not, is a jerk and, in this case a definite bully. If you know you're trans, that's all that matters!

Playing devil's advocate, I'm not sure how true this is, but this guy may be worried that his own experiences as a child that overlap with yours (e.g. if he played with dolls too) may be making him question HIS identity, even though it's probably not in jeopardy of being placed on the trans* spectrum (I couldn't think of another way to word this). Therefore he's trying to "debunk" yours in an attempt to secure his own. Just food for thought.

I agree with those who say that you don't have to justify yourself.

However, what you *could* say to someone like that is:  "Wow! You might be trans* too!".  If they say that they are not trans*, ask them how they know. 

That puts them in the same spot they just put you -- trying to justify their gender.  They may say, for example, "well, I know I'm a man because I've never thought of myself as anything else".  For most of us, the opposite is a key indicator we are, or might be, trans.

Quote from: KimSails on June 24, 2015, 08:59:45 PM

However, what you *could* say to someone like that is:  "Wow! You might be trans* too!".  If they say that they are not trans*, ask them how they know. 

That puts them in the same spot they just put you -- trying to justify their gender.  They may say, for example, "well, I know I'm a man because I've never thought of myself as anything else".  For most of us, the opposite is a key indicator we are, or might be, trans.

What a great comeback! I like this so much. 

KimSails gave an excellent response. To add to that, you could also ask your friend if, in a thought experiment, he no longer had his penis or if she no longer had her vagina. Presumably, they will answer 'yes,' and you can respond by saying that it's the same for you--our gender identities are not dictated by what genitals we have or do not have. It is in the brain (for those who believe in souls, you could say it's 'in the soul'). This is why there is a growing body of neuroscientific studies that show how the brains of transgender individuals (in terms of gender) correspond much more with the brains of the gender they identify with (FTMs' brains are much more like cis-male brains', and MTFs' brains are fairly more like those of cis-women). If, however, the friend answers 'no,' meaning they would no longer be male or female if they did not have their genitalia, tell them they are reducing people to their sex organs and that many people are born without conventional or usable genitalia, yet are still identified as cisgender men or women. For instance, Jacqui Beck was born without a vagina, yet has lived as a cisgender woman all her life.

It isn't about playing with dolls or trucks or wearing makeup or donning dresses; it's about who you see yourself as. In other words, you aren't trans* because you played with dolls; you are trans* irrespective of the fact that you did that, just as your friend is cisgender irrespective of his playing with dolls. Most importantly, it is *not* a choice we just wake up one day and make; it's who we are, just as someone's sexual orientation is.

You need to stay away from people like your friend's husband.  That guy is toxic.  My father used to use those same tactics on me (not about my gender, I was never "out" with my parents) but we fought over every little thing in my life, down to my choice of career, what car I should drive, and who i should marry.  My father was such a prick that he thought he knew better than I did what would make me happy in life, and he thought him experiencing his own failures justified him forcing his judgment on me.

Men like that (and some women) like to get inside your head and push your buttons.  One thing that occurs to me -- that guy might very well be trans and in denial -- because that is a very feminine way of bullying someone. In my experience, "real men" tend to be directly confrontational, rather than posing as your friend and causing you to doubt yourself by comparing themselves to you.

This guy might also be secretly jealous of you, knowing his own marriage or career would never survive transition and being closeted by his own fears.

Either way, avoid toxic people like him like the plague.  Find better friends.

From memory, other than my psychologist, there wasn't a single person that I came out to that I felt I had to justify myself to. In most cases I just said that I was trans gender and that I identified as female and was transitioning. In most cases I didn't tell anyone until a week from going full time. When I transitioned they had little doubt I was a woman anyway. It's not like a cis person has to justify themselves (although I guess some of them try to anyway...)

Arguing and attempting to justify yourself will get you nowhere.  My mother did the same thing to me and refused to accept me up to the last minute.   After I had transitioned I visited with her and she was able to accept me as myself.   So don't try to justify yourself and concentrate on being you.   It is much more effective.

I don't think *that* argument is one you're going to win....

Without being pessimistic; I don't think any of us would. It's possible he's had gender issues in the past. However it's also quite likely that he hasn't. For me, he sounds like a transgender non-believer. They do exist! 

Essentially he just doesn't think transgender, as a thing, exists. Obviously you exist; but you aren't transgender because that's not a thing. It's a delusion.

The same proviso could be applied to an argument about anything: ghosts or crystal healing or coffee shops. Yet it isn't that uncommon a viewpoint, especially when applied to mental health or conditions. Whilst transgender demonstrably exists as a thing, and we know it does more than most, you'll get deniers. There are those who vehemently argue against the existence of autism or schizophrenia or a load of other aspects of the mind.

I really don't know why this happens; people are so weird. But you'd probably have an easier time trying to convert a Bishop to atheism. It's very likely to be some sort of entrenched belief within this man; so he argues against it by the simple counter that all evidence of transgender is spurious because it can have a different explanation. A bit like saying: a light in the sky is just a plane, crop circles are made by people, funny noises are just funny noises, radio static is random etc. As counters to the posit that there are flying saucers.

Have a hug, and see if you can talk to your friend without him being there as she seemed the more accepting of the two. Maybe you could sort things out with her and leave him out for a bit? I know it's such a terrible feeling when you don't get on with a partner or whoever, they're essentially forced to choose between them and you. And it's generally the partner.

It could even be this man doesn't like transgender people in general, so doesn't want his partner (your friend) to associate with you. So he tries to be off putting when you meet him? That's an absolutely typical 'man' behaviour!!! Belittling someone by repeated disagreement.

I know that last bit goes against what I wrote earlier, but they're both possibilities. Either way, how much is the friendship worth and how much pain have you been caused?

This person is my best friends husband so I have to accept him as the plus one. I've had a talk with them and he didn't intend or mean to put me in the defensive position. I know now that both of them accept and support me 110% and I do sincerely believe that. Yes, the previous conversation had me questioning myself, but thanks to you guys, you helped me find perspective. I appreciate everyone who chimed in on this topic. I am wiser and stronger because of it. :-)

Jessica <3