I've come to the realization that hrt is not going to make me look female. My nose and brow bossing in particular are so horrifyingly bad that, even if the rest of my face were improved, everything will still be hanging on those traits to anyone who looks. It'll be many many years before I can afford FFS so I'm stuck having to settle with being so physically repulsive. I hate this. I hate myself.

I recognize this obsessive behavior to be a product of a kind of anxiety I've had for my whole life but it almost never has been as bad as it is about this lately. Probably because I actually AM masculine looking and there's nothing to do about it. I can't try "focusing on the things I can change" because there's nothing I can do and nothing I do will matter as soon as someone gets a good look at my face.

I feel so ->-bleeped-<-ty and inferior. I see so many posts of other people who have much better starting points or who have transitioned and passed so easily and I feel completely worthless and pathetic in comparison. I don't know why I consider that to be a qualifier for worth and deep down I don't think I do but that doesn't mean I can shake this feeling that I should just be incredibly ashamed of myself. Every time I look in the mirror it gets worse, I cast this dark spell on myself that makes the parts of me I hate seem monolithic and for all I know they are.

I'd like to believe I'm blowing this out of proportion and that I actually have a fairly good starting point, but no moment of hope lasts for long. I keep looking up before and after pics on google and I feel I've just been totally @#$%. Sure, some people there don't look "more male" than I do in their befores but if their afters look passable at all they don't have the same awful issues I do, or at least not nearly to the same extent. I hate feeling so bad about myself and things I have no control over but I realize I'll never be happy to be such and ugly girl who probably doesn't really look female even if I do manage to pass. I have no energy left to be positive any more. I can't imagine actually what going through this will be like and if I look so masculine I feel as though it will be a shameful embarrassment to try and be myself. "why couldn't I just be happy being an attractive guy instead of a weird crossdressing thing?" Every time I manage to step away and find some hope, I tell myself to go look in the mirror again now that I'm not being so negative, but enough looking turns it to hell again and the process repeats itself

You're writing yourself off before you even get started. Even without FFS there are cheats you can use to get around some problems. I understand what it's like to obsess about "imperfections" unfortunately it makes them seem to be much larger and harder to deal with when we do that. Ultimately you need to be the one who makes the decision of whether you could transition successfully but anxiety and self-hatred won't give a very truthful framework to work from. Perhaps it is worth chatting to a therapist around those issues. I know there were things about my appearance that I used to obsess over that were a non issue once my self image improved.

Hugs, B&B.

Every woman, cis or trans, needs to go through the painful work of getting used to the fact that she won't look the way she wants to. It's especially hard for trans women, and harder still when you have body and facial features that resist feminizing.

However, the process is the same. As women, we learn to accept ourselves, imperfections and inner beauty alike. There is no such thing as an ugly woman. Looking masculine does not make a woman ugly. Your femininity is beautiful in whatever form it comes. The journey we go on is to learn to accept our beauty as a gift and get past that it isn't the way we would have sculpted ourselves if we were the ones holding the chisel.

I hope you get there. I hope you get to the point where you can see your own beauty (because I promise, it's there). Where you can understand that regardless of how masculine your features appear to you, they are beautiful and feminine because you are a beautiful feminine woman.

I really wish I could tell you that there are shortcuts. But no woman, cis or trans, arrives at an appreciation of her own beauty in any other way. True, it's easier for some than others, especially those whose version of beauty matches the airbrushed model our culture has fed to us, but even for them, they have to learn to accept that one wrinkle, that one asymmetry that seems to mar the whole picture.

I really hope this helps. I know it's not great news, but it's all I have to give.

You are beautiful.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 03, 2015, 05:10:05 AM
You're writing yourself off before you even get started. Even without FFS there are cheats you can use to get around some problems. I understand what it's like to obsess about "imperfections" unfortunately it makes them seem to be much larger and harder to deal with when we do that. Ultimately you need to be the one who makes the decision of whether you could transition successfully but anxiety and self-hatred won't give a very truthful framework to work from. Perhaps it is worth chatting to a therapist around those issues. I know there were things about my appearance that I used to obsess over that were a non issue once my self image improved.

it seems odd to rely on "cheats" though. I hate the idea of only looking like a girl in respect to the amount of makeup I have on. Especially since I suck at it so much. Id like to talk to a therapist again but I have no money at all at the moment and I have a speeding ticket to pay off. I won't be able to talk to her for a long time probably.  I know I need to improve my outlook but nothing seems to work long term.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 03, 2015, 05:34:00 AM
Hugs, B&B.

Every woman, cis or trans, needs to go through the painful work of getting used to the fact that she won't look the way she wants to. It's especially hard for trans women, and harder still when you have body and facial features that resist feminizing.

However, the process is the same. As women, we learn to accept ourselves, imperfections and inner beauty alike. There is no such thing as an ugly woman. Looking masculine does not make a woman ugly. Your femininity is beautiful in whatever form it comes. The journey we go on is to learn to accept our beauty as a gift and get past that it isn't the way we would have sculpted ourselves if we were the ones holding the chisel.

I hope you get there. I hope you get to the point where you can see your own beauty (because I promise, it's there). Where you can understand that regardless of how masculine your features appear to you, they are beautiful and feminine because you are a beautiful feminine woman.

I really wish I could tell you that there are shortcuts. But no woman, cis or trans, arrives at an appreciation of her own beauty in any other way. True, it's easier for some than others, especially those whose version of beauty matches the airbrushed model our culture has fed to us, but even for them, they have to learn to accept that one wrinkle, that one asymmetry that seems to mar the whole picture.

I really hope this helps. I know it's not great news, but it's all I have to give.

You are beautiful.

Thank you. I know what you're saying is true. I just feel like I don't deserve to be content with myself sometimes. It's hard to keep the self deprecating thoughts away. I can never decide if I'm minimizing or maximizing my issues.

I look at my nose in particular about 1000 times a day and I still have no idea what it actually looks like. How wide it is, how visible my nasal bone is, how the surface of it looks, whether or not my nostrils appear separate from the rest of my nose or if it almost looks like my nose is one solid horrible shape. Am I saying it's fine inside my head to protect myself from the truth? Am I blowing how bad it is out of proportion? Not admitting that it's worse than bad? It seems somehow I manage to do all at the same time.

I know that feeling beautiful is something I need to work on, at the same time though I feel this compulsion to have my cake and it too- to not only feel beautiful but to look "objectively" so. Somewhere down the line I started to believe the two are one in the same and it's something I'm having a lot of trouble unlearning

You know the stages of this I go through are like night and day. Just about two hours ago this felt like the end of my life and now I feel fine. Looking at my first two posts I feel so ridiculous with how unreasonable I was being. I don't know how long it will take to slide back though. I can't decide if staying away from the mirror would be helpful or not. After all, it's my outlook I need to change. Going to stare and obsess about how I look can't be good though.

Quote from: Bleeps and Bloops on July 03, 2015, 06:03:58 AM
You know the stages of this I go through are like night and day. Just about two hours ago this felt like the end of my life and now I feel fine. Looking at my first two posts I feel so ridiculous with how unreasonable I was being. I don't know how long it will take to slide back though. I can't decide if staying away from the mirror would be helpful or not. After all, it's my outlook I need to change. Going to stare and obsess about how I look can't be good though.

I have been trying to learn not to look in the mirror for too long. To stay aware of my mood while using one. One second too long and I could be beating myself up just like you were. I don't want to delude myself in either direction but positive thinking is always better than negative. Look in the mirror and enjoy your beauty! But if you feel your mood start to shift, just walk away and go do something positive. We are all beautiful and we deserve to let ourselves feel that! We are with you girl, in highs and the lows.

I'm tall, bald, and repulsive looking... as a male. With big frog hands, super sized feet, a constant battle against uni-brow and bunny ears, and brow bossing that can be used for knocking down a cinder block wall. If you listen to my wife, also a nose that can be used to shovel it all away.

One day many many many years ago I was waiting on line in the grocery store. Looking around I saw real women doing real life stuff. Some good looking, most average, many..... not so average. Yet all women. Many years ago my wife and I were waiting in line together. She whispered me "You look far better then her" point towards what I'd rate as average.

Like most women I learned that makeup is a girls best friend followed by all the little tricks starting with your hair style and clothes to hide or minimize all the little to big things you don't like about yourself. The total truth is we are our worse critics (or would it be best?). We know what flaws really eat away at us. What we see and hate may be nothing to someone else

Would the fashion industry be a multi-billion dollar enterprise if women all loved how they looked like guys do?  Ditto for cosmetic surgery

Take just one point - how male that eyebrow ridge is or is not. Let's say just for the sake of argument that yours is very male (I don't know never having seen your pictures). You can do a lot to take attention away from that until you can afford to have FFS for that. Like what? Check your hair styles. Different styles will either call attention to your forehead or minimize it (bangs are excellent to minimize forehead). That's a heck of a lot cheaper and more immediate than FFS.

I'm not saying don't get FFS. Maybe you'll still want it later. Maybe not. But there are definite things you can do to maximize your femininity, to help you blend into society, until you can make more extensive changes later.

Quote from: JoanneB on July 03, 2015, 08:03:36 AM
I'm tall, bald, and repulsive looking... as a male. With big frog hands, super sized feet, a constant battle against uni-brow and bunny ears, and brow bossing that can be used for knocking down a cinder block wall. If you listen to my wife, also a nose that can be used to shovel it all away.

One day many many many years ago I was waiting on line in the grocery store. Looking around I saw real women doing real life stuff. Some good looking, most average, many..... not so average. Yet all women. Many years ago my wife and I were waiting in line together. She whispered me "You look far better then her" point towards what I'd rate as average.

Like most women I learned that makeup is a girls best friend followed by all the little tricks starting with your hair style and clothes to hide or minimize all the little to big things you don't like about yourself. The total truth is we are our worse critics (or would it be best?). We know what flaws really eat away at us. What we see and hate may be nothing to someone else

Would the fashion industry be a multi-billion dollar enterprise if women all loved how they looked like guys do?  Ditto for cosmetic surgery

Sometimes I fear that my nose in particular will always screw me regardless but I see what you're saying. I've asked my brother and his fiance if they thought my nose looked too big to be female when in girl mode and they've both said they didn't think of it as a problem like I do. I know I have a big nose, I guess I'm fine with that. I just think the shape is really meh and from just the right angle where you can really get a good look at how massive my nasal bone is, it's horrifying. Maybe other people wouldn't really notice it but I do. Either way I get bad ideas about myself that I can't shake sometimes. I feel compelled somehow to be as vain as the most vain person.

Quote from: LizMarie on July 03, 2015, 09:51:09 AM
Take just one point - how male that eyebrow ridge is or is not. Let's say just for the sake of argument that yours is very male (I don't know never having seen your pictures). You can do a lot to take attention away from that until you can afford to have FFS for that. Like what? Check your hair styles. Different styles will either call attention to your forehead or minimize it (bangs are excellent to minimize forehead). That's a heck of a lot cheaper and more immediate than FFS.

I'm not saying don't get FFS. Maybe you'll still want it later. Maybe not. But there are definite things you can do to maximize your femininity, to help you blend into society, until you can make more extensive changes later.

Well it isn't super huge or anything, but in the right light it is a noticeable lump of skin a bit lighter than the rest of my forehead and I wonder if it doesn't totally change how passable I could be. I fear having a lot of bangs because it seems to widen out and elongate my nose when I do. It's kind of like pick your poison.

I think it would help to ask yourself why you need to transition. For me the need overrode all my other issues. Therapy if you don't already have a therapist I believe would greatly help Not that this will help, but for a very long time at the start of my transition there was a woman who sat in the same café as I did. I would of bet a years worth of mocha that she was a trans. I told my therapist about her. I sat next to her one day as she was talking to her friend and had to admit to myself she most probably was cis. All her anatomy and face pointed trans, but I was wrong. Woman absolutely are of many shapes and forms.

Quote from: Bleeps and Bloops on July 03, 2015, 05:35:38 AM
it seems odd to rely on "cheats" though. I hate the idea of only looking like a girl in respect to the amount of makeup I have on. Especially since I suck at it so much. Id like to talk to a therapist again but I have no money at all at the moment and I have a speeding ticket to pay off. I won't be able to talk to her for a long time probably.  I know I need to improve my outlook but nothing seems to work long term.

EVERY woman has things that they don't like about themselves and most of them hide those things with clothing styles and makeup. Spend some time at your local mall sitting quietly off to the side and observing women - you'll see that they come in all shapes and sizes, and some of them even have masculine features. If you are astute you can even figure out what they don't like about themselves by what they are wearing and what it hides.

We were all at that "What's mascara?" point at one time so don't freak out about not knowing much about makeup - all women have to figure that out for themselves. Once your financial situation improves and if you can work up the courage to do so go into places that sell makeup. They will take the time to show you what to buy and will show you how to apply it. If you are on the cheap plan like I was just buy some inexpensive cosmetics at your grocery store and practice with them. Start with the basics - eyeliner, mascara, eyeshadow, foundation, and lipstick.

It sounds like life has beaten you down just a bit. Please take the time to do whatever it is you do to make you feel better, such as taking a long nature walk, listening to music, or watching a sunset. Life is a precious and wonderful thing, and you are a beautiful woman! 

I remember your photos... While you probably won't agree, you actually have a better starting point than most. Yes you don't have narrow small feminine nose, and you don't have ideally feminine forehead. Guess what, very few are lucky enough to have an ideally feminine nose, and literally everybody have somewhat masculine forehead, either because of bossing or too much frontal projection... and many cis women don't have a beautiful tiny nose, and there are some who have somewhat masculine forehead. I have seen many MTF who have it waaay worse than you do, and even a lot of them become at least decently passable and live happy life as their true self. Passing is not so much about hormones, as it is about effort... even successful FFS alone is not a guarantee of anything. It takes time, and learning a lot of skills, with hair and make-up, and skin care, and facial hair removal, and voice training, and appropriate diet for a bodyshape that works the best with your frame, and building the wardrobe that works for your body shape, and many other small things, which in the end help to shift the apperance from masculine to feminine.

Quote from: mmmmm on July 03, 2015, 12:04:33 PM
I remember your photos... While you probably won't agree, you actually have a better starting point than most. Yes you don't have narrow small feminine nose, and you don't have ideally feminine forehead. Guess what, very few are lucky enough to have an ideally feminine nose, and literally everybody have somewhat masculine forehead, either because of bossing or too much frontal projection... and many cis women don't have a beautiful tiny nose, and there are some who have somewhat masculine forehead. I have seen many MTF who have it waaay worse than you do, and even a lot of them become at least decently passable and live happy life as their true self. Passing is not so much about hormones, as it is about effort... even successful FFS alone is not a guarantee of anything. It takes time, and learning a lot of skills, with hair and make-up, and skin care, and facial hair removal, and voice training, and appropriate diet for a bodyshape that works the best with your frame, and building the wardrobe that works for your body shape, and many other small things, which in the end help to shift the apperance from masculine to feminine.

I know, and I really appreciated your insight before. However, like I said, I go in and out of different states and the anxiety took over after a while.

Like, when you said something like "with a couple years on hormones and a smartly approached ffs, you would look amazing!" Ever since then I've been mulling over the meaning of that constantly: "Do they mean to say I could only look 'amazing' with ffs?" At the time you did clarify that you didn't mean ffs as a condition for passing but "amazing"? I've continuously been asking myself what that meant or if you meant I'd only achieve that with ffs, not because of any actual implication you made, but because of my own obsessive thoughts.

And I know that passing is about a lot of factors, but I tend not to worry about the stuff I CAN change. It's the sheer facts of genetics that bother me the most. The idea of looking like a crossdresser fills me with shame, to be honest. I don't think people who don't pass so well should be ashamed, at least not deep down, but I do think I harbor some personal resentment of being trans that effects how I feel about myself. I know that's awful, I just haven't been able to get over it.

sorry you feel that way about being viewed as trans. There are others who feel that way and its understandable given that society has it's Cro Magnons still walking around.  My attitude though is to embrace and unite.

Quote from: Eva Marie on July 03, 2015, 11:40:41 AM


It sounds like life has beaten you down just a bit. Please take the time to do whatever it is you do to make you feel better, such as taking a long nature walk, listening to music, or watching a sunset. Life is a precious and wonderful thing, and you are a beautiful woman! 

I'm trying to get back into that now. Recently I've stopped doing pretty much anything I enjoy anymore, let alone trying to move my life forward. I want to start doing the things that make me feel better, but I've been so discouraged. I'm not really sure how to get over the feeling of being exhausted by everything, even just the idea of trying to find new music to listen to or a lot of time even hanging out with my friends.

Quote from: stephaniec on July 03, 2015, 12:47:38 PM
sorry you feel that way about being viewed as trans. There are others who feel that way and its understandable given that society has it's Cro Magnons still walking around.  My attitude though is to embrace and unite.

Well I certainly don't live in an area that's the pinnacle of acceptance and the reaction to different things my parents have picked up on has not been encouraging. I have a habit of taking in a lot of media that is just generally ignorant of these issues. for instance, I spend a lot of time listening to the podcasts of different comedians and almost anyone who brings it up has no idea what they're talking about even if they do mostly accept trans people. I've kinda surrounded myself with too much content like that for pretty much my whole life. I feel like my self esteem has been warped by the ideas I feel compelled to accept, either because of different, very closed-minded people shoving their ideas in my face repeatedly, or the opinions of entertainers (who I like and tend to agree with on many things) which are ignorant of trans issues or even frame trans people as a joke. I wish I could avoid internalizing things like I do.

I think that's why therapy is so important. You get a one on one perspective that's unbiased.

I have my problems to like big feet

Quote from: Bleeps and Bloops on July 03, 2015, 12:40:01 PM
I know, and I really appreciated your insight before. However, like I said, I go in and out of different states and the anxiety took over after a while.

Like, when you said something like "with a couple years on hormones and a smartly approached ffs, you would look amazing!" Ever since then I've been mulling over the meaning of that constantly: "Do they mean to say I could only look 'amazing' with ffs?" At the time you did clarify that you didn't mean ffs as a condition for passing but "amazing"? I've continuously been asking myself what that meant or if you meant I'd only achieve that with ffs, not because of any actual implication you made, but because of my own obsessive thoughts.

And I know that passing is about a lot of factors, but I tend not to worry about the stuff I CAN change. It's the sheer facts of genetics that bother me the most. The idea of looking like a crossdresser fills me with shame, to be honest. I don't think people who don't pass so well should be ashamed, at least not deep down, but I do think I harbor some personal resentment of being trans that effects how I feel about myself. I know that's awful, I just haven't been able to get over it.

I still think you can achieve "passing" with hormones, time and effort. Like many others. But I can imagine how your face would look with FFS done right. I hope you will have a chance to afford it someday. But maybe it turns out you won't need and want anything...

I know what you mean... Couple years before transition I was afraid I would be never able to really "pass", because I am too tall (I'm 6ft) and because my body would never look right, and because I really hated my nose, and my chin wasn't perfect either... and I was able to find many many more reasons... while I was completely ignorant about all really good things about my body. And I constantly postponed start of transition because of this...  I think the key is focusing on positive things and being happy for every small step you make... and using negativity and doubts to push forward, to work that much harder, not letting it to hold you back. Maybe you havent completely accepted yourself... A good therapist could definitely help you with this.