Hope this doesn't turn into a rant! I'm a new transitioner and DO NOT understand why we are treated like children. If a cis woman wants breast implants does she have to go through pysch evaluation and a year of waiting? No! She gets a consult,pays her fee and gets it done. Why are we treated like we don't know our own minds?

Couldn't agree more, Loneman.

Liability I guess... But it's not our faults that they don't think we know anything. *eyeroll* I'm glad some doctors are turning to informed consent as a basis for treatment.


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Quote from: lost._.at._.sea on July 05, 2015, 04:34:07 PM
Liability I guess... But it's not our faults that they don't think we know anything.

Actually, IMO, it sort of is our fault. We put up with it. I'd like to see a bit more of an outcry from the trans community about the paternalistic way the medical establishment treats transition care. We need to make some noise, and if that doesn't change things, we need to make more noise.

I know this is going to be an unpopular post but initially we don't really know our own minds. We live with the vision of what will be like for so long that we don't take into account the reality of the world. Breast implants are fine after you have been on hormones long enough to obtain most of your growth, but if you get them early, you might have to have them removed or adjusted. When I had my nose job, I didn't need approval but I was also asking for something not that different than my original nose. Had I changed my mind, the nose would have been fine on a male face as well as a female face. In either case, I didn't think I would miss my Adams Apple. SRS I needed many approvals and now I am going for voice surgery, I don't think being post surgical 33 years that I will likely go back to being male.
Mostly it's a matter of the doctors being sure you thought this out carefully and aren't going to have regrets latter.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 05, 2015, 05:43:30 PM
Actually, IMO, it sort of is our fault. We put up with it. I'd like to see a bit more of an outcry from the trans community about the paternalistic way the medical establishment treats transition care. We need to make some noise, and if that doesn't change things, we need to make more noise.

Hmmm... Maybe that is a better way to see it.


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The only surgery that has a 'Waiting Period' is SRS, at least as per the WPATH Standards of Care.. Yes, an assessment by a medical professional is required under the Soc's - but I'm not unconvinced the same requirement shouldn't exist for cis people.

Actually, Kelly_Aus...I've been told there IS a wait period for ftm's after T begins and before top surgery.

For my top surgery I called my surgeon in January and they set me up to have surgery June 16th. Had to get a physical, blood work, and a chest x-ray. My Endo did everything for me 2 weeks prior to my surgery except for the X-ray. Plus there are also tons of other people getting surgeries so that's probably a reason for the long wait time.

But the wait time is good because it gives you time to really research the surgery and get an idea of what you're going to need to prep yourself with before and after surgery. I needed to set up FMLA at work, I needed to book a hotel nearby, I ordered a bunch of crap on amazon after seeing what people had bought for surgery. You don't want to rush ANY of this. You really need to mentally prepare yourself for this and be 100% sure this is what you want. When my surgery day came around I was excited and scared but knew that I was going to be more confident in who I was.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 05, 2015, 08:10:49 PM
The only surgery that has a 'Waiting Period' is SRS, at least as per the WPATH Standards of Care.. Yes, an assessment by a medical professional is required under the Soc's - but I'm not unconvinced the same requirement shouldn't exist for cis people.

I'm fine with an assessment to determine if someone is sane and capable of informed consent. Anything else is not acceptable and opens the door to gate keeping of the worst sort. This based on the assumption that there are reasonable number of people with mental health problems that would get worse having surgery. I've no idea if its true.

The problem with doing if for cis people is that where do you draw the line? I don't want to require permission to eat an ice cream, because as everyone knows that's bad for your health and being overweight can kill you.

I prefer to live in a free society where people make their own decision and take responsibility for themselves, tempered with a bit of care for people who are not capable of doing so.

a quick google for "wait period for cosmetic surgery" turns up some interesting ideas from Australia.  Their board of surgeons want a 2 week wait for ANY cosmetic procedure and 3 months for anyone under the age of 18.  The concern revolves around expectations, complaints, and lawsuits.  Maybe it is a good idea to require a certain amount of education and introspection before taking on any procedure that contains elements of irreversibility and danger.  Maybe the key is moderation and gate keeping proportionate to the danger and potential negative effects.

Quote from: RaptorChops on July 06, 2015, 12:35:18 PM
But the wait time is good because it gives you time to really research the surgery and get an idea of what you're going to need to prep yourself with before and after surgery.

Isn't this kind of paternalistic? "We know better than you, a competent adult, do about how long you need to do research."

Medicine doesn't do this for ANY OTHER KIND of elective surgery. Want a vasectomy? Want your tubes tied? We'll give you the next available date. Want a nose job, BA, or tummy tuck? No waiting.

Why is that?

What is it about that fact that I'm trans means that I am not competent to decide when to have elective surgery whereas the rest of the world is?

Quote from: Loneman on July 05, 2015, 03:37:39 PM
Why are we treated like we don't know our own minds?

Truth is a lot of us don't know our own minds.
I know a few women who rushed through to get their GCS and are pretty unhappy and messed up afterwards. They came to realize only after that it does not fix the problems they thought it would.

I followed the standards of care with the understanding that it was for my benefit

Quote from: Loneman on July 06, 2015, 12:08:48 PM
Actually, Kelly_Aus...I've been told there IS a wait period for ftm's after T begins and before top surgery.

Not in the US. I got on hormones via informed consent, tracked down a therapist who I had 3 sessions with, and then he wrote my referral letter. I was on T for less than a month before I had my referral, and I only waited as long as I did for surgery so that I could train a substitute for me at work. I was on T for almost 5 months at the time of my surgery.

As long as you don't have any extenuating circumstances and you've got resources, you can make the system do what you want. If you're the least bit confused or need help navigating the system or coming out, I'd strongly advise seeing a therapist and making the most of your sessions with them before you do anything that irreversible.

Quote from: AnonyMs on July 06, 2015, 01:12:45 PM
The problem with doing if for cis people is that where do you draw the line? I don't want to require permission to eat an ice cream, because as everyone knows that's bad for your health and being overweight can kill you.

I prefer to live in a free society where people make their own decision and take responsibility for themselves, tempered with a bit of care for people who are not capable of doing so.

Right on!!


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Quote from: suzifrommd on July 06, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Isn't this kind of paternalistic? "We know better than you, a competent adult, do about how long you need to do research."

Medicine doesn't do this for ANY OTHER KIND of elective surgery. Want a vasectomy? Want your tubes tied? We'll give you the next available date. Want a nose job, BA, or tummy tuck? No waiting.

Why is that?

What is it about that fact that I'm trans means that I am not competent to decide when to have elective surgery whereas the rest of the world is?

So you want us to all be treated equally in terms of wait time? That would be great! I think we should all have a wait time. Just to be sure.


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Quote from: Loneman on July 05, 2015, 03:37:39 PM
Hope this doesn't turn into a rant! I'm a new transitioner and DO NOT understand why we are treated like children. If a cis woman wants breast implants does she have to go through pysch evaluation and a year of waiting? No! She gets a consult,pays her fee and gets it done. Why are we treated like we don't know our own minds?

I don't think there is any requirement to get approval for a boob job. If you want you just find a surgeon that will do the exact procedure with the implants you want. The same for FFS. I never needed approval just a boatload of money. The only surgery I ever needed approval for was my SRS and the nature of it is different. It's irreversible and if you don't like your life afterwards, you are pretty much stuck. I don't think it was a big deal now looking back but when I was staring down the long road to travel like you are today it seemed like it could have been eternity. Don't worry when surgery day rolled around for me then none of the standards of care and blah blah blah mattered to me anymore. I was there, it was going to happen and that was that.

Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't have the same right to make bad decisions as cis people. (I know one woman who will tell you she waited 19 years for GRS... and regrets it. If "no one regrets it, ever" is the standard, the wait time would be infinite; if it's to prevent *some* regretters, I'd like to see actual evidence from solid studies establishing where the line should be drawn.)

With that said, there actually are plenty of paternalistic doctors who also won't hand out sterilization to cis women on demand, and tell them they'll change their minds. I'm not saying that's a GOOD thing, but it happens.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 06, 2015, 06:15:59 PM
Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't have the same right to make bad decisions as cis people. (I know one woman who will tell you she waited 19 years for GRS... and regrets it. If "no one regrets it, ever" is the standard, the wait time would be infinite; if it's to prevent *some* regretters, I'd like to see actual evidence from solid studies establishing where the line should be drawn.)

With that said, there actually are plenty of paternalistic doctors who also won't hand out sterilization to cis women on demand, and tell them they'll change their minds. I'm not saying that's a GOOD thing, but it happens.

I'm not sure if it's trying to pump up the good numbers or just a simple case of surgeons, therapists and doctors who do not want to deal with lawsuits and malpractice charges afterwards. Just look around at the extremely vocal de-transitioners. They blame doctors for giving them easy green lights, and friendly government officials. In short them blame everyone in the world except for themselves. If that numbered increased by say 10,000 more people it might cause people to take notice and monkey with the standards of care.

Are there people who miss the bar even with 1 year RLE? Sure. But I wouldn't want it changed because if the hold out is to pump up the numbers then I would expect surgeons to increase RLE even further and I don't think anyone wants that.