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'The touch' gesture from women.

Started by Violet Bloom, July 08, 2015, 11:00:34 AM

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Violet Bloom

  I've been out at work for a couple weeks now and everything is going very well.  Many co-workers have been far nicer to me than I imagined they would and some are fascinated by my new presentation.  Certain women have been regularly giving me glowing compliments about my appearance, almost like they feel I need to hear it, but I don't think they are consciously doing it for that reason.  Overall I'm really enjoying the experience.

  One thing has come up that is causing me some internal conflict though.  While I've been getting loads of hugs since returning, even from some of the guys, I've never been one to lead with such a gesture or any of the more subtle feminine touch gestures.  It always felt to me like this was off limits as a guy, like it would cross a line with women.  In the time that I've been back at work some of the women have been giving me the 'arm-touch' or light grab gesture, something they never did before as far as I can remember, and very rarely did it happen anywhere else either.  Something has changed now and I don't know what it is.  I think perhaps they feel my new identity now makes me more approachable.

  My concern is with actually becoming the giver of this touch gesture.  I don't know if it still would cross a line because I can't be sure to what extent my female identity is being truly believed and integrated into the group or simply being humored.  I'm extremely paranoid about ever attempting it because I don't want to take a good situation and go and creep people out.  Determining the motivation of the women who were touching my arm would be difficult and I don't want to be judging it wrong.  I also don't want to show my inexperience by ending up using it in the wrong context on others.  It's also highly unlikely I would ever use the gesture on a guy.

  As much as I've let go of the 'restraints' on my expression I'm still to afraid to take it all the way and test the limits of people's acceptance.  Like coming out in the first place, making a social faux pas seems to be one of those things you can't completely take back and erase once it's been made.  The last thing I ever want to happen is to have people who believe I'll really just a guy in a girl's world think I'm taking advantage of the situation with alterior motives.  Even HR seemed to be trying to nudge me towards using the Family Washroom instead of the Women's because I don't think they fully accept my identity.  It feels distinctly like I'm being humored only because they were instructed to by one of their higher-ups.  (I know for a fact they were bluntly instructed by a Superior to make my transition work out with the company.)  If I generate complaints from a female because a touch is misinterpreted I'm not sure HR is going to back me up on it because of her own personal beliefs.

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emyrinth

Hmmm thats a tough one. First off touching at work is always a tricky thing because it CAN be misinterpreted.  I can't tell you if they are acting or not that takes actually seeing the situation but those actions tend to be very unconscious.  What I CAN do is give you an example of a woman who is extremely undemonstrative. My mother has never initiated physical contact with anyone in her life.  She does not casually touch, shake hands, hug, kiss (lips or cheeks) or anything else I may have forgotten.  Every time she has ever hugged me its because I initiated. Kissing my dad? He initiated. Shaking hands? Nope never ever try to shake her hand. Me? I'm a hugger. I'll take hugs from almost anyone and if I know you well enough to know you won't take it wrong I'll hug you in a heart beat.
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Laura_7

If you touch a sweater made of soft materials how does it feel ? Good usually...
Its just that feeling... a good feeling... its not in a spirit of fondling but in a spirit of sharing...

so if you feel like it you might try some light touches... in a relaxed atmosphere...
I'd say try to relax... if you are calm and relaxed its more likely people around you are.

So being in a good mood, not double guessing motives and just being natural and yourself should help...
and touches become natural over time...


hugs
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barbie

It is very common that women touch each other easily. My country, S. Korea, is densely populated and it is inevitable to touch others in the street. Nevertheless there are unseen, but clear euclidean distances between men and women. Once women recognize me as another woman, the physical distance suddenly becomes very close, easily touching me. If they recognize me as a man, there is a certain spatial barrier between women and men. Some aged women even grasp my hands while asking me the direction in the street. When I sit in a bench at a public place, it is very common that other women sit just next to me, touching my shoulders, but men do not.

This is what I realized after presenting as a woman.

barbie~~
Just do it.
  • skype:barbie?call
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Zoetrope

I have always done this, even as a guy.

How odd. I never really thought about it.
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V M

I've noticed this also, usually on the forearm just above the wrist and/or the upper arm near the back of the elbow

I've always taken it as a polite way of making sure they have your attention and that you are listening to what they have to say

I'll usually listen and femininely place my open hand (left) up to my shoulder as they speak then lightly place my open hand on theirs, as I answer "umhmmm", "yes" or "that's right" to agree as I apply very light pressure and nod just a bit, if the answer is no I'll say "oh no dear" or such as I wave my open hand a little bit then the open hand usually goes back up to my shoulder

Sometimes I add a little bouncy jiggle or look of dismay depending on what's going on
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Beth Andrea

I get touched all the time, never did as a guy.

I see it (in my case) as a form of acceptance, "Hey, you're one of us now, you're ok."

I never touched others as a guy, so when women started touching me I had to learn to relax, and began observing the circumstances when it happened...and when it didn't happen. Use that as a guideline when to touch.

It's just a light fingertip touch, to the forearm or shoulder joint, usually on greeting or when departing.

...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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Zoetrope

I am always touching the forearm, touching the elbow, touching the knee ... barely conscious of it, I just do.

I guess I am a bit of a flirt :~]
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Beth Andrea

Quote from: Zoetrope on July 08, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
I am always touching the forearm, touching the elbow, touching the knee ... barely conscious of it, I just do.

I guess I am a bit of a flirt :~]

I saw a billboard for "Lovers", a woman looking over her shoulder flirty-eyed...the text said, "Time to be coquettish!" or somesuch. I actually had to look up the word...

Quoteco·quette
kōˈket/
noun
noun: coquette; plural noun: coquettes

    1.
    a woman who flirts.
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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Zoetrope

Quote from: Beth Andrea on July 08, 2015, 07:56:53 PM
I saw a billboard for "Lovers", a woman looking over her shoulder flirty-eyed...the text said, "Time to be coquettish!" or somesuch. I actually had to look up the word...

I am going to make sure I use that word in conversation today! :~D
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HoneyStrums

Well you say you wouldnt use this gesture on a guy, and while presenting as male other woman didnt use these gestures on you?

Not using these gestures on guys seems to be somthing you have in common with atleast some of the other women you work with. (I point this out in hopes to ease some of the tention this is causng you)

I go buy a rule, that just because sombody ells does somthing doesnt mean I have too. And thats because above all ells Im Me an individual, unique and a person. If I adopted every behaviour that presented itself like this, I would be nothing more that a combination of the most common attributes of every other woman I met, and where in this case would my individuality be?

I think it is for situations like this that the saying "Be true to yourself" was inteded. Instead of looking at it like other woman do it, so that means I should, or as though not doing it undermines your womanhood. Look at yourself instead and ask, is this somthing im c omfatabledoing? and dont think as though it is somthing you should be comfatable doing either.

Things like this have a way of causing us to sub-contiously conform over time anyway. basically my advise is, dont worry about it, and in time you might find yourself doing it automatically in similar situations to other women you have witnessed doing it regardless.

I hope this helps.
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Violet Bloom

  Thanks for your replies!  I really enjoyed the responses and they are helping me think this thing through.  I'm actually not so concerned with using the touch gestures at work.  It's just that work's where people were doing it to me so I used it as an example.

  In general I'm very hesitant to use these same gestures anywhere I go.  I've always been afraid to offer a hug too.  Time will tell now that I'm out fully everywhere I go what the level of acceptance of me as a woman is.  I think I can safely judge my co-workers' behaviors lately to at least conclude that I'm being 'welcomed into the fold', as it were.  One of them actually kinda grabbed my arm above the elbow after I helped her with something.  It wasn't just a touch in that case.  I'm going to be paying closer attention to this behavior from now on, especially when I see it happening between other people, so I can get a better sense of context.

@ButterflyVickster: I definitely don't want to be trying to mimic everything women do in my attempts to fit in.  I just don't want to be afraid to try things in case certain gestures actually do flow from me naturally if I don't hold myself back.  One thing I've noticed I have a habit of doing instinctively and I don't have a clue why is that silly leg-lift thing when hugging guys.  Somehow it's programmed into my subconscious reflexes because I didn't even realize I was doing it until someone pointed it out.  I never made any point of learning this behavior, it really never occurred to me to do so, and it's only been happening ever since I found my trans identity and quit holding back my affectionate nature.  I also have no romantic or physical attraction to guys so it's even more curious a reflex for me to have.

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Eva Marie

I would say to just be yourself and if hugging/touching are unnatural for you just don't do it.

I have the same built in caution mechanism that was left over from my previous life and thats why i'm not a toucher and am rarely a hugger unless I know someone well. Additionally, there *is* a risk of someone in the office taking a mistimed touch the wrong way and causing grief for you so IMO the risk is probably not worth it.

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Elis

Sorry to butt in, but found this post interesting. My manager does this and especially yday as she knew I was upset (trans crap causing it). I always thought it was just her but now looking back all women in my past seemed to have done the same thing. I guess it's just what women do, men have the bro nod and women do the touch gesture. I'm not out yet, so not sure if she'd do the same thing if she knew I was male, it'll be an interesting experement when I do come out though.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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Ms Grace

I've never been much of a touchy feely person, and I used to give out that vibe big time - people who commonly would touch others never touched me. Since I've been full time though that has shifted for me and I think people have read that too. I was recounting an unpleasant interaction with my father with girl friends on two separate occasions and in both cases they held my hand. It felt unusual but very comforting. I still don't feel like initiating any touching so I suggest if you don't feel like doing it then don't. :)
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Zoetrope

Yikes ... I 'gave the touch' to an office colleague today, and I realised through the eye contact that followed, that we had a bit of chemistry.

Then he kept smiling at me ...

I really mustn't go there. Need I learn again not to get involved with colleagues ...
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Ms Grace

Yeah, I'd be careful. Women touch other women on the arm on the hand and it doesn't mean anything except a friendly comforting gesture. Touch a guy and he will most probably get the wrong idea and/or accuse you of coming on to him.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Zoetrope

He didn't have the wrong idea :~]

Just one of those 'oh hello' moments ... shame its a colleague.
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iKate

Most with guys now is a handshake. Any other touching can be construed as being inappropriate.

I do loosely (not pressing boobs) hug people, close friends if they support me or I get emotional.
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iKate


Quote from: barbie on July 08, 2015, 05:38:34 PM
It is very common that women touch each other easily. My country, S. Korea, is densely populated and it is inevitable to touch others in the street. Nevertheless there are unseen, but clear euclidean distances between men and women. Once women recognize me as another woman, the physical distance suddenly becomes very close, easily touching me. If they recognize me as a man, there is a certain spatial barrier between women and men. Some aged women even grasp my hands while asking me the direction in the street. When I sit in a bench at a public place, it is very common that other women sit just next to me, touching my shoulders, but men do not.

This is what I realized after presenting as a woman.

barbie~~

I noticed this too. On the Seoul metro women would sit right next to me. Most men would stand. Some would sit but I never really saw any squeezing in. Meanwhile in NYC anything goes.

I was also approached by women asking what country I was from, particularly up by N Seoul tower.
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