Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 09, 2015, 08:26:38 PM
From other messages on the board,  it appears that Dr. O is still seeing patients and is still going to the operating room with the younger doctor with whom he is turning his practice over to.  From what I learned at one of the events last year, the other younger doctor is also extensively trained in jaw surgery in Switzerland from  the  Swiss surgeon  who first developed that type of jaw surgery. I cannot remember his name, right now.   If you want to get a definitive answer to your question - -  you might give Dr. O a try,  otherwise,  you may go on wondering  "what if ?"  for a long time.

I wish he had more before and afters though cause right now its starting at zero.  Dechamps that is.

Quote from: SamSparks on July 12, 2015, 09:03:48 AM
I wish he had more before and afters though cause right now its starting at zero.  Dechamps that is.

Some of Deschamps-Braly's patients have posted pictures in this forum.  If I recall correctly, they reflected some rather spectacular results.

You might ask for a consult and ask Dr. O directly what his opinion is of the work Deschamps-Braly has done ?   Also,  many surgeons can show you pictures in their office during a face-to-face consultation for which previous patients have given permission for that limited  purpose - -  but which they would not be able to publish on the internet because of the patient's privacy concerns.

One would normally think it would be unlikely for someone like Dr. Ousterhout, who has invested a lifetime of professional effort and pride in developing this field of surgery, to leave his legacy in the hands of anyone who had not already demonstrated his or her ability to consistently obtain results that meet Dr. O's highest expectations ? 

Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 12, 2015, 05:37:25 PM
Some of Deschamps-Braly's patients have posted pictures in this forum.  If I recall correctly, they reflected some rather spectacular results.

You might ask for a consult and ask Dr. O directly what his opinion is of the work Deschamps-Braly has done ?   Also,  many surgeons can show you pictures in their office during a face-to-face consultation for which previous patients have given permission for that limited  purpose - -  but which they would not be able to publish on the internet because of the patient's privacy concerns.

One would normally think it would be unlikely for someone like Dr. Ousterhout, who has invested a lifetime of professional effort and pride in developing this field of surgery, to leave his legacy in the hands of anyone who had not already demonstrated his or her ability to consistently obtain results that meet Dr. O's highest expectations ?

I agree but you can't overvalue the expertise that comes from experience.  I'm sure Dechamps will be, if hes not already, one of the best ffs surgeons in the world.  But I don't want to wait 10 years for him to go through 500 patients you know.  I could be misunderstanding how long it takes someone to "get good" at surgeries like these.  I just wish there was more informaiton.  There only case iv seen from him was that one blonde girl from here and she didn't post befores... only afters so idk what to glean from that.  I'd really like to consider him though because I like that he has training (residency) specifically in jaw surgeries (outside of ffs patients) and obviously he can do a forehead reconstruction or Dr. O wouldn't be supporting his skills... you would hope anyway.  All the other ffs surgeons have more experience and more patients to look at results from though.

Quote from: SamSparks on July 13, 2015, 07:44:22 AM
I agree but you can't overvalue the expertise that comes from experience.  I'm sure Dechamps will be, if hes not already, one of the best ffs surgeons in the world.  But I don't want to wait 10 years for him to go through 500 patients you know.  I could be misunderstanding how long it takes someone to "get good" at surgeries like these.  I just wish there was more informaiton.  There only case iv seen from him was that one blonde girl from here and she didn't post befores... only afters so idk what to glean from that.  I'd really like to consider him though because I like that he has training (residency) specifically in jaw surgeries (outside of ffs patients) and obviously he can do a forehead reconstruction or Dr. O wouldn't be supporting his skills... you would hope anyway.  All the other ffs surgeons have more experience and more patients to look at results from though.

The pictures you refer to from the blond girl - - are pretty convincing - - even without the before pictures and her comments are rather favorable.  And unsolicited. And not cherry picked like a lot of pictures on Drs web sites.  Also,  I think there are some before pics somewhere on the net.   

From his web site,  Dr O's FFS protege does routinely do some rather extensive jaw surgeries on non FFS patients.  Correcting shape and large over and under bites, and even moving both the upper and lower jaws at the same time.  It looks like he uses digital virtual surgery to plan the details for those operations.  Apparently,  the policy is not to put up patient pictures on his web site.  I guess there are pro and con arguments about that. And it can frustrate some of us.  However,  I would expect that he may be able to  provide before and after  pictures of jaw surgeries during face to face consultations.

And you are right.  It is often a mistake to fail to properly value experience and without a teacher, it can surely take hundreds of patients to learn how to do those surgeries with consistently good results.  That is a problem if you are trying to do that on your own - - with nobody to look over your shoulder and share all of their previous errors and mistakes.  Which is basically what every other FFS surgeon in world is currently trying to do.  Of course Dr. O did that 30 years ago and overcame that  steep learning curve 20 or 25 years ago  - -  and, thankfully, he has now shared that hard earned experience with a hyper well trained successor.
   

Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 13, 2015, 06:35:17 PM
The pictures you refer to from the blond girl - - are pretty convincing - - even without the before pictures and her comments are rather favorable.  And unsolicited. And not cherry picked like a lot of pictures on Drs web sites.  Also,  I think there are some before pics somewhere on the net.   

From his web site,  Dr O's FFS protege does routinely do some rather extensive jaw surgeries on non FFS patients.  Correcting shape and large over and under bites, and even moving both the upper and lower jaws at the same time.  It looks like he uses digital virtual surgery to plan the details for those operations.  Apparently,  the policy is not to put up patient pictures on his web site.  I guess there are pro and con arguments about that. And it can frustrate some of us.  However,  I would expect that he may be able to  provide before and after  pictures of jaw surgeries during face to face consultations.

And you are right.  It is often a mistake to fail to properly value experience and without a teacher, it can surely take hundreds of patients to learn how to do those surgeries with consistently good results.  That is a problem if you are trying to do that on your own - - with nobody to look over your shoulder and share all of their previous errors and mistakes.  Which is basically what every other FFS surgeon in world is currently trying to do.  Of course Dr. O did that 30 years ago and overcame that  steep learning curve 20 or 25 years ago  - -  and, thankfully, he has now shared that hard earned experience with a hyper well trained successor.

Well then I'd like to at LEAST talk to some of his patients.  I haven't heard many accounts.  A consultation I'm guessing would cost a lot, cause i'd have to fly out there and then pay for it so it would probably be $500+.  And honestly I really don't value the consultations too much.  I don't understand why some people put so much weight on how they "feel" about their surgeon like if he was nice or funny or comforting or whatever, I don't care about those feelings just results and experience.  All the surgeons just tell you what they think you want to hear tbh.  Its a little hard to feel comfortable with going to a younger surgeon when there are surgeons out there with 20+ years of craniofacial experience.  I mean yes, hes young and bounced around Europe through various training sessions and claims to be an expert in plastic surgery, cranio-facial surgery, and  orthognathic surgery and I don't doubt he has had training in all of those but his years of experience are still low which worries me a bit.  He's also probably charging more than any other ffs in the world ha.

I will say that.... although the blonde girl did look very feminine it was clear that her jaw had undergone major surgery it definitely didn't look born and bred natural, not that it looked bad necessarily or unfeminine, just the shape looked like something that was formed more deliberately.  But that would be preferable to still having a dude jaw after surgery I guess.  The main thing worrying me about Spiegel is all the "conservative" warnings that get thrown around about him.  I am on the younger side for ffs patients (I'm 22 currently) but doesn't change the fact that I have a masculine jaw and chin as well as a masculine forehead with significant brow bossing.  Such a hard decision. 

Im a former patient of Dr. Deschamps Braly. I had a chin reduction and jaw reduction. While overall the total effect visually was noticeable; I would not describe it as overly aggressive. I DO agree on one point you made: " it was clear that her jaw had undergone major surgery it definitely didn't look born and bred natural, not that it looked bad necessarily or unfeminine, just the shape looked like something that was formed more deliberately" This is definitely agreed upon even in my case. Dr. Deschamps Braly seems to prefer this almost too-perfect doll like lower face (pointed, overly streamlined) Im not trying to be nitpicky but I could definitely see that. I do feel Dr. Ousterhout almost perfected the right amount of aggressiveness and restraint in terms of bonework....... he did my rhino and forehead.