Before I start I'd like to apologize for this question, I know that I'm a new member and that my activity on the forum will stay limited to this single topic, but I really need to talk to people about this who have experience with this and who might give me some actual advise and opinions.

I transitioned 5 years ago and had SRS 4,5 years ago and my life has been amazing ever since. I did modeling, I worked for Disney, and now I'm traveling around the World always living and working (from teacher to community developer, and from professor assistant to farmer) in each country for a year or two. I really enjoy my life and I'm mostly stealth, but ever since the whole media circus around Caitlyn Jenner it's like it has become an international sport to hunt down and spot transsexual people on the street, which has resulted in people clocking me on the street and yelling about it. This has never ever happened to me before, and now it's like happening all the time (ever since Caitlyn Jenner) and it's totally shocking me to the very core of my soul, it hurts so much. Every time someone does it I feel like a failure, I feel like I'm not good enough, that I'm ugly, that I lost my whole family and old friends just to become an ugly clockable mess, that people can bully as being a freak.

This whole situation has now let to me really thinking about getting FFS, because I never ever want to be clocked again, I don't want to look in the mirror or have a bad day where I take a picture of myself and I think: "OMG such a horrible male features", which is why I came to this forum. I'd like to know what you guys and gals think I need and how much it would cost. I myself am really bad with objectively stating what needs to be fixed and what doesn't need to be fixed, because I'd say: "Well I'd like the hook out of my nose" but then often my friends (cis gendered friends, I have no trans friends, because I avoid the community at all costs in real life) will say: "Nooooo you have a very thin and feminine nose, I'd love to have your nose" or I'd say: "My jawline is way to masculine" and my friends would be like: "But that's what photographers liked so much about you", etc etc.

So again I'm sorry for bothering all of you with these questions, I just want to know what can be done, how I can improve and how much it would cost (and so how many years I'd have to collect money)

No make-up 3/4 picture



Upside down no make-up frontal picture



Profile picture in scuba gear



Full body picture in wedding dress and soft photoshoot make-up



Dark fashion make-up for a post-apocalyptic photoshoot

You look feminine enough to me. You may want to consider some beautification surgery. I would consider dr Mayer in your case and he is not very pricy. Send him the pictures and get his advice to start with

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Don't listen to cis people's advice on sexual dimorphism in the face, they are blind to reality most of the time.  They will just keep placating you, all the while some random persons lizard brain will trigger "that girl looks fairly masculine, are they trans".  Just felt like mentioning that.  People won't be honest with you.

So sorry to hear that you are having these issues so far along into your transition. Your best bet for prices and options are to talk to surgeons and get some quotes and opinions. Procedures can range from 10K to 50K and up depending on many factors. I see nothing obvious in those pictures other than maybe your forehead area being flat and not rounded and maybe the brow area. That should easily be overlooked and a non-issue in real life. You look fine and female.

I am curious what city you are in that you have encountered people yelling at you on the street?

To be honest I have noticed no difference with Caitlyn coming out at all to the extent that no one has even asked me about it or wanted to talk about it in any way even from a curiosity perspective but I am in Canada so that may make the difference. In my experience the general public are not experts in picking out trans folks unless it is obvious in some way and it is the trans* community who are the worst. I do not see how they would pick you out so obviously based on the pic's.

Once you start looking for male features you will find them In every women.

The simple fact being, what one calls a male or female feature, is due to common groupings, and those groupings can change beteen different places due to the gene pools beng differeent. And in some cases a male feature in one place can be a female feature in another.

somtimes what clocks you in one place, can pass you in another. And unless you know exacly what part of your face is clocking you, you run the risk of making yourself more noticable. even if only because of noticable surgeries.

I cant help you, in terms of exsperience with FFS.But think of hair transplantation as an option first to lower you hair line slightly, but their realy is nothing I can see.

It might make you feel better, knowing that my sister (none trans) gets called ->-bleeped-<- more then I do. And oddly enough still more so then my other sister with a destict stash. None trans women get harassed as trans too, to be honest wether or not a person is trans or not, isnt somthing these bullies actually care about. And it might help knowing that both my sisters find this amusing.

Sorry I cant be more help.

It must be hard to have been stealth for so long and now to not be.   Sounds like it is really undermining.   

IMO you look great and frankly I am surprised that people are  clocking you.   Even more surprising is that they are saying anything.   Just burns my toast.

If it is because Caitlin is so much in people's minds,  then let's hope it fades like so many things in people's minds and just becomes... Ho-hum.

Clara

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goodness!  Honestly, I see nothing in those pictures that would even hint to me that you are a transwoman. I know little of FFS..but if you decide to do that, I don't think you'll need much at all.

If you ask me, I think your brow bone and the nose bone/droopy nose tip are the things that could give you away. Maybe a little more fullness on the cheeks could help too.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on July 15, 2015, 02:49:44 PM
Once you start looking for male features you will find them In every women.

The simple fact being, what one calls a male or female feature, is due to common groupings, and those groupings can change beteen different places due to the gene pools beng differeent. And in some cases a male feature in one place can be a female feature in another.

somtimes what clocks you in one place, can pass you in another. And unless you know exacly what part of your face is clocking you, you run the risk of making yourself more noticable. even if only because of noticable surgeries.

I cant help you, in terms of exsperience with FFS.But think of hair transplantation as an option first to lower you hair line slightly, but their realy is nothing I can see.

It might make you feel better, knowing that my sister (none trans) gets called ->-bleeped-<- more then I do. And oddly enough still more so then my other sister with a destict stash. None trans women get harassed as trans too, to be honest wether or not a person is trans or not, isnt somthing these bullies actually care about. And it might help knowing that both my sisters find this amusing.

Sorry I cant be more help.

There's a big difference in a cis woman being identified as trans, compared to us being clocked. Cis women call b.s. and perhaps get a little angry, whereas for us it is true and can hurt to the nth degree.

I was thinking about your experience and something must be very obvious when you attract that kind of situations. In the photos, even though with lot of make up, right angles, right lighting you look feminine enough even though with some obvious male facial structures, i think that your masculine facial structures combined with your hands shape, foot size, some perhaps masculine acting, perhaps your voice lead people to believe that you are trans. Of course very few will say it. Transition is not only about SRS and passing is not about what kind of genitalia one has. Think about what makes those people think you are trans and try to correct those things.

So I decided to wait a bit to reply so more people could reply

@Possessed: Thank you for the advise, I'll take some clearer pictures for him and ask his opinion. When you say that he isn't very pricy, about what kind of price are we talking? The thing is that I care about my face a lot and so would only trust the best of the best, just like I only trusted the best of the best for SRS (I went to Doctor Suporn in Thailand). So when it comes to FFS I currently only trust Dr Spiegel.

@SamSparks: Indeed, when it started happening my friends were like: "Don't let it get to you, people will start doing it more once you let it get to you. Just be you and be amazing at it and you'll be ably to do anything." But then I got assaulted a few days later, so yea. They have a hard time really understanding what really happens and can happen if people clock you.

@Erica_Y: I'll get to the FFS specific comment with a later commenter since you both say the same thing .

For my own safety I will not say the specific name of the town where I'm currently living, but I live in a small rural town in Northern Queensland (Australia) where I work on a farm, but I just finished my 13 weeks of regional work, so I earned my second year visa and I'm planning to move to a different city/town next Friday, but my farm is begging me to stay because they don't want me to leave them.

And yea ever since the whole Caitlyn Jenner circus things got really bad, both with locals and backpackers. I actually wrote a respectful email to Caitlyn Jenner yesterday, I just needed to talk with someone about it and I decided that I'd do it with her.

@ButterflyVickster: Lowering my hairline might indeed be one of the things that's needed, because I have such a high forehead, but I once saw someone in real life who had her hairline lowered and it looked super unnatural and she could only do like one hairstyle, because with any other hairstyle she'd look unnatural, so I'm really really scared of lowering my hairlines. All I want is to look normal (and beautiful of course xDDD)

@Claraaa: It's extremely undermining, I'm currently holding onto my sanity by a small string (partly that's also because I had to sort bananas the past 13 weeks for my second year visa, but I actually used to like it until people started harassing me on the street, which then had the chance to fester in my mind while sorting bananas). It's a very unhealthy situation when you find yourself staring at before and after pictures and videos every single day, realizing that you most likely won't ever be ably to afford it (or it'd take you +5 years to get the money, and that's if I'd be lucky), realizing that the past 5 years you had no need for it. Hell ever since last week people are calling me 'it' and 'he', it's slowly starting to mentally kill me

@Marlee: Thank you for your kind words

@Wednesday: Thank you for your comment, actually when I asked Dr. Suporn 5 years ago (when I was having SRS) what he'd do to me if I had the money to get FFS he told me mostly the same you said. He said he'd get the hook out of my nose and remove the 'droopy', that he'd reduce the brow bone and then (you didn't say this part) because there'd be some extra skin after reducing the brow bone, he wanted to give me a small eye lift.

PS: I love your avatar, you're so beautiful I wish I could look like that <3

@Kittenpower: Indeed, it hurts every time they do it, but when it happens I try to turn that negative moment into an educative moment, so I try to teach and explain everything they want/need to know. It hurts, but I try to at least grow something good from it.

@Possessed: I originally thought the same thing, until this happened: 2 years ago I was staying with 2 friends of mine (who know about me) for 2 weeks (after I came back from Paris) before I moved to Thailand to work there as a volunteer, and my dad contacted me, telling me my mom and little brother wanted to meet me (the meeting never happened because my dad warned me in time that they had malicious intentions) and so I told my best friend (one of the people I was living with): "You know, my mom and little brother are lucky that I'm not as feminine as others, it'll be easier for them to deal with me than it'd be if I was as girly as most people you can find on youtube. Though I wish I was as girly as them." and my friend (who's super beautiful and girly herself) looks at me with these funny eyes and she's like: "Uhmm ... You're one of the most girly people I know ..." Best comment ever xDDD

On another note, my hands are actually quite small (although the diving picture seems to show the opposite, but that's because of perception). When I put my hands against the hands of a guy, then their hands are gigantic, when I put my hand against those of another girl, they're the same size, my fingers are just a little bit less thin. and my feet are the same size as those of my mom, so yea ...

Also on the pictures there are only 2 with make-up, which is the one in the wedding dress and the one with the katana, and those were photo shoots, the other pictures have no make-up at all in them.

The obviousness isn't as obvious as you might think, since it only started after the Caitlyn Jenner circus, people are more aware now and it has turned every day into 'spot a ->-bleeped-<-'-day it seems.

@To everyone: Thank you all for replying and I'm looking forward to future posts. I really appreciate that you take your time reading my post and that you offer to help me.

I've had a few better days so I'm feeling a bit better so it's easier to see things in a better perspective

So I need to be honest and say that it's not like I'm being clocked all the time. It happened like once on the street and that guy started yelling it out, his girlfriend (who's a friend of mine at work) quickly grabbed him and covered his mouth with her hand telling him to shut up because he was drunk. But because he was yelling so loud and because there were people on the street, some heard it, which resulted in Aboriginal people (who kind of live in the park I have to walk past to get to the grocery store) to start calling me: "Hegirl" or "Boygirl", I of course ignored them when they did this and now they're not doing it anymore (although once one of them threatened to beat me up, luckily a local toke a hold of him and told me to run). When they're not as drunk they often try to flirt with me (without success of course xDDD).

At the hostel I stay, one guy clocked me too, and because they're like always drunk and using drugs they're really talkative and gossip a lot, so he probably told the whole hostel, which resulted in the worst amongst them (2 girls) to call me 'it' and 'he' and yell at me all the time and threaten to break my laptop or steal my medication (the funny thing though is that they're actually more masculine looking and sounding than I do, so they're most likely projecting and bullying to feel better about themselves)

On top of this I need to admit that in the past I've dated and had sex with guys who didn't even know I was trans (I'm bi for the record), and when I go out to clubs, I often find myself in a situation where multiple guys flirt with me: They'll take my hand and pull me on the dance floor, they'll sit besides me in the couch and put their arm around me, I often get free drinks, and guys offer to give me massages. So whatever it is, it isn't that obvious at all, people are just hyper aware at the moment.

Edit: For the record: These days I do tell a possible partner, but back when I was 23-24 I didn't. (I'm 27 years old now, I tried to transition as a teen, after it was prevent when I was a kid, but my mom and our family GP prevented it again, so I ended up starting transition at the age of 19, which was extremely difficult because of all the road blocks my mom created, and finally started HRT and had SRS at the age of 22. It's a very complicated story which is luckily behind me)

I find those reactions unusual in Australia.. But then Queensland is a slightly odd place. I'm far less fem looking than you and I've had very few issues in either Melbourne or Adelaide. And back in Adelaide I know some of the Aunties, so I get no crap from most of the Aboriginals. Heck, I've stood stunned and amazed as white people have been smacked around by Aboriginal friends for giving me crap..

@Kelly_Aus: I really like most Aboriginals to be honest, I often listen to their stories, or help them up if they fell on the ground because of being drunk, and they sometimes want to share their alcohol with me. But that one time they were calling the names it was instigated by this one guy who's always really drunk and he had often asked me to show him my 'titties' (like he calls them), he didn't like it that I said no every time, so after a while he became aggressive repeating over and over again: "Who do you think you are, I'm a real Australian, but who are you to be walking around here. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!"

Quote from: xorchidfeyx on July 18, 2015, 01:25:50 AM

Edit: For the record: These days I do tell a possible partner, but back when I was 23-24 I didn't. (I'm 27 years old now, I tried to transition as a teen, after it was prevent when I was a kid, but my mom and our family GP prevented it again, so I ended up starting transition at the age of 19, which was extremely difficult because of all the road blocks my mom created, and finally started HRT and had SRS at the age of 22. It's a very complicated story which is luckily behind me)

You answered your own question. You live in a rural area of Queensland. For god sake. I used to live for one year in Australia, even though as a gay guy, and I remember that Queensland is all about masculinity. Those guys just try to act as masculine as possible and I am sure they would be very agitated if somebody has abandoned his masculinity and through surgery has become a woman. Telling your partners about being trans is of course something those prospective partners will talk about and will sooner or later out you. Even Sydney where people are very much lgbt friendly and being trans is more acceptable you can talk about being trans in Oxford street and in the taxi club (if it still exists) but you can't just tell a potential partner about having had your sex changed. 
I think you are outing yourself and bringing risk into your life.
I am also trans and I have never told anybody about my previous life as a man. Don't get me wrong but I only hang around with rich and successful people, because they are more content with then self and they don't give me hard time because of their own frustrations. Being around indiginous people, drug users and alcoholics, and on top of it all outing yourself to your potential partners is very risky. Think about it.

Quote from: possessed on July 18, 2015, 06:21:45 AM
I think you are outing yourself and bringing risk into your life.

Number of trans people who were killed by partners in Aus in the last 5 years? One and her partner knew long before he killed her..

Not noticed any difference peoples behaviour in Melbourne or rural Australia since Caitlyn and I live in an extremely rough place.

@Possessed: It's not that I choose to hang out with alcohol and drug addicts mind you, it's just what it is here in the working hostel (luckily I'm leaving it this Friday), also ever since I started backpacking I haven't had sex in 2 years, so there was no need for me to admit this, so this isn't applicable. And to be honest I wish I shouldn't tell people about it, I wish I could just love people and not having to care about that stupid detail.

But your post does raise an interesting idea. Maybe the way my family brainwashed me for years, and how they made me feel guilty and bad in my own skin has resulted in a situation where I feel guilty for my own existence which lead to me needing to apologize for the very fact I even exist, this way undermining my own self esteem. This isn't completely true of course, because I'm a life enjoying person that's traveling around the World helping people, working as a volunteer and trying to give advice to everyone who asks me for advice and I love who I am, but it's also true that there is a permanent feeling of guilt inside me that was put inside my heart by 2 decades of physical and mental abuse by my mom. So yes, the problem might actually exist inside an extreme trauma that I haven't processed, that leads to me feeling inferior to the rest of the World, which leads to me feeling the need to apologize for who I am.

I regret making this whole topic now and making an account on this forum. I'm being perceived as someone who gets clocked all the time and who isn't passable. Of course I'm guilty for this perception myself by making this topic, because of a temporarily issue that has come into existence because of a celebrity and the dysphoria this celebrity is causing inside of me.

Ugh I'm sorry I asked for advice in the first place, I'm so sorry for taking all of your time

Quote from: xorchidfeyx on July 18, 2015, 08:20:53 AM
I regret making this whole topic now and making an account on this forum. I'm being perceived as someone who gets clocked all the time and who isn't passable. Of course I'm guilty for this perception myself by making this topic, because of a temporarily issue that has come into existence because of a celebrity and the dysphoria this celebrity is causing inside of me.

Ugh I'm sorry I asked for advice in the first place, I'm so sorry for taking all of your time

Look... don't regret, and don't go...

Alone writing about issues helps. It might make you think about things you could make better, and give others the opportunity to help...

and you might think about a therapist... there might be counseling at lgbt places...

and just thinking about it and being aware should help...

you might for example just be aware of your femininity, and kind of exuding it... without exaggerating... and you should pass better more and more...

and people clock even cis people, so its not really unheard of...


hugs