Hey guys,

So I came across a topic the other day about the infamous head nod and I thought it was pretty interesting to see the thoughts around it. Anyways it got me thinking, there's a few things that I think are considered expected male social behaviours that are things I innately want to do and are natural to me; the head nod (I just always "got" it), being "chivalrous" - opening doors, helping women carry their pushchairs in the tube etc. For the life of me I have never been able to stop doing those but there are loads of other things which I've had to learn not to do and had to learn to do it the "female" way e.g. not sitting with my legs open and instead crossing them, never slouching etc.

So the idea of this topic was to discuss how everyone feels/has gone about unlearning the learnt behaviours and general experiences everyone has had.

Diplomatic filler words/phrases. Picked them up over the years thanks to fear of being misunderstood and people becoming angry. Didn't work anyway (apparently I am "very blunt" even when striving not to be) and in casual conversation it comes off as feminine so I avoid it now. I still have anxiety problems so it's difficult sometimes not to bury things in "maybe", "it seems", "my perception is" and so on.

Sometimes that kind of phrasing is useful and called for, so I don't regret that I learned how so much that it became compulsive.

Oh that's quite an interesting one! I hadn't thought about that, thinking about it now that is something I learnt, being less direct. I do it at work quite a lot... "In my opinion" and "Well that's just my view on it" etc. Although I agree that it's quite useful, in work it can be a way to get people to agree with you. Definitely ones I reckon I'd have to watch out on are things like laughing at people's (mainly guys) jokes when they're not funny and smiling and making eye contact with guys. This is mainly at work (at an agency) where I interact with clients regularly and sometimes ones that are difficult to get on side. I guess the ego stroking. It's not something I would ever naturally do but I know that if you're seen as female doing those things that work to your advantage etc... I think it might weird other guys out if I started ego stroking!

I think I'm kind of a special case, where I was always 'one of the guys' (friends I came out to even mentioned this) so I never had any female social behaviours, or at least, the ones I did have were forced in certain situations, and unnatural. My mom eventually gave up on telling me to keep my legs closed while seated if I wasn't in a skirt (about 2 times in my life ) so there goes that behaviour. I've always been a blunt speaker, I never seemed to pick up any female speech patterns such as filler words, or apologising for everything. Granted, all this made it difficult before I discovered I was trans and came out, but it's worked amazingly afterwards.

The only one I really had to learn was the head nod, as I wasn't used to receiving it, let alone giving it, although now that I mention it my dad actually gave me the nod quite a bit growing up. Guess I just had to learn how to return it to strangers!

I've always been pretty friendly with random strangers I have to interact with in various situations, and now I feel like it comes across the wrong way when it is a guy doing it. Now I'm always afraid people will think I am trying to flirt with them or that I am weird.

It seems strange to need to unlearn friendliness, but I feel like I need to in order to come across more typically male.

To be honest, with you, I dont pay much attention to these kinds of things, For me, its been a lot more like, just because Im a woman, it doesnt mean I have to act that way.

I suppose, having three tomboy sisters has helped me with this, it ment that in comparrison I have always been a lot more girly then them to begin with. Its also means that I dont have issues with this stuff from the start is my guess? Basically, If i have three un-deniably woman in my life setting the example of, you dont need to be girly to be a woman, It means that I worry about this stuff less, and being told by my oldest sister (the girlyest) that even she isnt as girly as me, that im comfatabe with my body luanguge.

I also feel, that those times when sombody points somthing of me out as masculin, if i start to worry about it, it increases my social dysphoria, but after a small chat with my oldest sister, its brought back  down, simply bacause her usual reaction is, i dont do that either so im a man aswell lol.

Quote from: spacerace on July 19, 2015, 02:27:29 PM
I've always been pretty friendly with random strangers I have to interact with in various situations, and now I feel like it comes across the wrong way when it is a guy doing it. Now I'm always afraid people will think I am trying to flirt with them or that I am weird.

It seems strange to need to unlearn friendliness, but I feel like I need to in order to come across more typically male.

You know, it's funny you say that - I've always been kind of the opposite. I've been told I'm not terribly "warm" or "approachable," but I think more often than not that tends to be a coded way of saying you're not inviting attention/not acting acceptably feminine; if I don't make lots of small talk or have interest in traditionally gendered "female" social cues, it's taken as a sign of me being cold... whereas for a cisguy, that'd be expected.

Honestly, though, I don't think you need to learn unfriendliness, per se - people being weird around you just being nice is, in the end, going to be on them. Things like legs spread wide, taking up a lot of space - that's all normative stuff that a lot of feminists and activists have said really interesting stuff about in recent years, in terms of challenging it (i.e. WHY do guys need so much space when we're on the bus/train/etc.). I think that while it might be good to recognize those cues when you see them or at least be aware of them, forcing yourself into a certain pre-formed "man" gender script that doesn't feel right for *you* will only make you feel even more isolated/constricted in the end, no?

Quote from: ThatElliotGuy on July 19, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
I think that while it might be good to recognize those cues when you see them or at least be aware of them, forcing yourself into a certain pre-formed "man" gender script that doesn't feel right for *you* will only make you feel even more isolated/constricted in the end, no?

This.... ^

Its a very helpfull mindset for everyone.
aka focus on being you, not what is exspected of you.

I definitely pay close attention to those kinds of mannerisms. In fact, I am a lot like you. I do nod my head, carry myself like a typical male, and chivalry is something that definitely comes naturally to me. But like you, I have noticed that I don't instinctively sit like a male! I have decided that this is probably because males typically don't have lots of...space down there. And it's pretty uncomfortable to be a biological female (at least I feel this way) and sit with your legs wide since there is in fact a wide gaping hole.

Sometimes I use feminine phrases and tone, and sometimes I will interact with people in a more female way. For example, I've found myself to be a people-pleaser — I have the urge to ensure everybody likes me and is friendly to me. That being said, I still often notice the masculine side to my social actions and thought processes, including the fact that I always aspire to be in charge and to be "the guy with the solution."

Most of my life has been surrounded by females. I have all female siblings, and I only socialize with females (I've never been out so guys never really want much to do with somebody they see as a girl). I'm pretty sure that's where I adopted all of these social habits. It's only human nature to conform to the social mannerisms one is exposed to! Maybe it's the same case for you?



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Quote from: ThatElliotGuy on July 19, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
Honestly, though, I don't think you need to learn unfriendliness, per se - people being weird around you just being nice is, in the end, going to be on them.

This was very helpful to read...I guess feeling bad about being nice is silly after all. I get caught up worrying too much about what other people think of me.

Only thing I unlearned, or rather, learned, was to walk a bit more broadly instead of how I otherwise walked which was probably more gender-neutral, just to make sure my body language was overall consistently masculine.

Otherwise, I've always had a masculine body language and always "got" male stuff; never female stuff. I am not even sure where or how I got it or why I got it. It wasn't something I consciously thought of that I was like "hey, I want to be more masculine in my body language". It just always came very naturally to me. It's the same thing with male social interaction as well. It just always made more sense and I understand it so much better than I do female social interaction, and I want to add that I primarily had female friends growing up, so my preferences just happened in spite of that.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on July 19, 2015, 02:53:14 PM
To be honest, with you, I dont pay much attention to these kinds of things, For me, its been a lot more like, just because Im a woman, it doesnt mean I have to act that way.

I suppose, having three tomboy sisters has helped me with this, it ment that in comparrison I have always been a lot more girly then them to begin with. Its also means that I dont have issues with this stuff from the start is my guess? Basically, If i have three un-deniably woman in my life setting the example of, you dont need to be girly to be a woman, It means that I worry about this stuff less, and being told by my oldest sister (the girlyest) that even she isnt as girly as me, that im comfatabe with my body luanguge.

I also feel, that those times when sombody points somthing of me out as masculin, if i start to worry about it, it increases my social dysphoria, but after a small chat with my oldest sister, its brought back  down, simply bacause her usual reaction is, i dont do that either so im a man aswell lol.

Pretty much. Rural area here and the people I know... We're all pretty much the same.
Even more confusing -_-
Muh
Away with the construct

Quote from: inmotion on July 19, 2015, 09:06:16 AMopening doors, helping women carry their pushchairs in the tube etc. For the life of me I have never been able to stop doing those

I don't think anyone should stop doing those things.  That's part of being a courteous human being and learning to interact with others in such a manner. 

Quote from: noah732 on July 19, 2015, 04:12:02 PM
I definitely pay close attention to those kinds of mannerisms. In fact, I am a lot like you. I do nod my head, carry myself like a typical male, and chivalry is something that definitely comes naturally to me. But like you, I have noticed that I don't instinctively sit like a male! I have decided that this is probably because males typically don't have lots of...space down there. And it's pretty uncomfortable to be a biological female (at least I feel this way) and sit with your legs wide since there is in fact a wide gaping hole.

Sometimes I use feminine phrases and tone, and sometimes I will interact with people in a more female way. For example, I've found myself to be a people-pleaser — I have the urge to ensure everybody likes me and is friendly to me. That being said, I still often notice the masculine side to my social actions and thought processes, including the fact that I always aspire to be in charge and to be "the guy with the solution."

Most of my life has been surrounded by females. I have all female siblings, and I only socialize with females (I've never been out so guys never really want much to do with somebody they see as a girl). I'm pretty sure that's where I adopted all of these social habits. It's only human nature to conform to the social mannerisms one is exposed to! Maybe it's the same case for you?



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Dude that sounds really familiar to me! Thing is with things like sitting, when I was younger I'd sit just like a "Typical male" but I just kind of got it pushed out of me because it's not how a "woman should sit" - which is bull because I always found it way more comfortable, although I'm a natural sloucher so that probably feeds into it!

I'm the same though, I've two sisters who I'm very close to (despite being complete opposites!) and a brother who I'm not very close to. Throughout life I too have been surrounded by girls, I only really have girl mates apart from a few guys I go for cigarette breaks with. But anyways totally agree, I adopted certain things from the people around me and I feel the same about trying to please people and have them like me - I always felt that was so strong with groups of girls, the need to be liked was huge, even if you didn't like the people!

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on July 19, 2015, 09:20:28 PM
I don't think anyone should stop doing those things.  That's part of being a courteous human being and learning to interact with others in such a manner.

I completely agree, hence why I never could! I just instinctively do it because it's the right thing to do, it's just funny when I open the door for everyone and the guys are always like "oh no you go first" and then it feels like it's a "guy thing" even though it's also good manners - if that makes any sense!?

I never used to cross my legs when I sat until I started T!

Lol #backwards

It's funny, I'm still pre-transition, but I get all of this...

For me, it's wearing the mask...  "Passing" as a man, which after 40 years...  I can't take the mask off any more.
Disgusting, actually. I can't even think of all the things I used to do - for example, i DO remember using my hands to talk...  being predominantly verbal (not math). Carrying my books in school against my chest. Not understanding why the boys and girls drifted apart...  And why girls were "icky" (when the boys seemed to be idiots, but I think that was the school I was sent to.) 

Now I don't even know what to un-learn.  :-) 

YOLO, enjoy your youth while you have it... 

I was conditioned to smile excessively as apparently people perceived my female self as having a case of "bitchy resting face" and I got tired of hearing things like "Are you okay?" or "Why are you mad at me?" when I was wearing what I felt was a neutral expression.

I'm trying to break that habit while somehow still appearing friendly and approachable, since I've heard that from a guy, my excessive smiling can seem condescending or like I'm not taking someone seriously.

It's a really tough habit to break.

I actually didn't have too many female behaviors until I decided to feminize a few years ago (I thought gender was a choice, silly me). Even with my female behaviors, people always told me I was like a dude (I didn't successfully feminize that much I guess). However, now I find myself struggling to unlearn these few things that certainly aren't who I wish to be perceived as; if this was me from the start, I wouldn't worry about it, but it is all stuff I've forced on myself to try to fit it. Now I worry that these behaviors, if I don't un-learn them, might make me come off as flamboyant or overly gay once I look more masculine. -_-

I do use feminine filler words a lot, unfortunately, and am working on taking them out of my daily vocab. The biggest struggle has been un-learning female speech patterns. I've always had a very male tone, but then spent a long time worrying about how masculine I sounded and tried to feminize that. Now, it's a long time struggle to un-learn my high pitches when I get excited, and my very fem "customer service voice". I'm making some progress, but it's definitely not at all easy. This is the main reason I hate hearing my own voice and try to avoid talking sometimes (I oftentimes have the urge to yell random things to people far away, but I'm too aware of my voice to let myself do it; I feel like I have to suppress myself).

For some reason, I'm able to speak in a very male tone when I talk to my dad, and only to him. I'm not sure if it's because he was the first male figure in my life, or simply because he's so dull it's hard to put much emotion into talking to him. But my goal is to be able to speak to everyone in that tone one day. It's just especially hard knowing that I'm capable of such a low tone, but end up going to my higher tone when speaking to most people.

I'm naturally transitioning right now, and the longer I do it, as well as the longer I dress male, the more my learned female body language has just kinda fallen out of me. I have noticed I walk more masculine sometimes, with my chest held higher--definitely feels more awkward now since I can't bind in everyday situations and my chest bounces more like this. -_-

I guess one day I'll be happy with where I'm at, but until then, every day will be some kind of struggle.