Good late night, guys and dolls.

Nichole W. brought up a good question in my previous thread: (well I actually asked the question) https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22802.msg171960.html#new

Can one live as their target gender without passing?
(other than in ultra trans' accepting cities such as San Fran)

By 'without passing', I mean there's no ambiguity here: Transmen and transwomen who look like women and men respectively, regardless of the clothing, makeup, or anything.

The only way possible I would see is if you lived in a tribe or something where it was known by all you were your target gender and treated by all as the target gender regardless of looks.
Otherwise I don't see a way.

Your thoughts?

Can't imagine it myself. Only way I can imagine it is in a small town with a respectful community. I live in a small town with a respectful community, but I don't think I could've lived as male without the physical changes that have happened.

The other thing would be a large city and a micro community of accepting people.

Dennis

Good question Nero. I'm not going to get all philosophical and wax poetic here. I personally wouldn't be able to do that. The point, for me at least, is to kind of get to the point where my gender is basically a non-issue in my life.  I'm not expecting to be Paris Hilton or anything, but I would like to get to the point where I can have daily interactions with people (you know, bank, supermarket, work, etc.) where they aren't like 'hmmmmm, is that a man or a woman?' But, who knows what will happen. I need to do this no matter how it turns out, but I truly believe I'll be ok.

I am encouraged from so many people on this site sharing their stories and experiences. Why wouldn't it happen to me? If I work hard at my transition, look at it the right way, I'll come through this thing just fine Meghan

PS, these are just my opinions, not trying to say this is how anyone else should feel, etc. ,etc. ad nauseum

if one doesnt pass as thier target sex, thier a man or woman, living as a woman or man. not a male living as male, or female as female, in my opinion, passing, or even SOME degree of passing is needed, unless you live in a bubble where everyone knows you, and can treat you right, and sees your true gender, its just not going to work.
R

Possibly but in the world folk see you as you appear, i.e If you appear male then you will get treated as one and vice versa-I have only started to pass with the help of hormones etc,otherwise it would be very hard for me both mentally and practically.

To me its absolutely impossible

hi .... yes you can. i did for 5 years  starting 11 years a go so what did i do i told those about me where we live .  about my self what was going to happen. i did dress as a female just came out slowly we have here under 5000 thousand people so i was well known as a male not every one knew at that time just those who were there that i told & i did not have any back lash then when i did come out 5 years ago every thing was in place for me to do it then it was on t v & in the papers.   so from then on in new zealand.   i was well known & on the net as well this is not for every one to do.   i know that .   so for me it was right to do every thing that has happened to me has in the main .has been great .so you can do it ..just do your home work  & just do it in a way that others are a part of whats going on & just take your time go slowly it will work out .....now this has worked for me you may do things in an other way we are not all the same in this i hope this may help you ...... noeleena......

seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.

Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:58:46 AM
Can one live as their target gender without passing?

That's pretty much up to the individual, their needs and their environment. There are people here for whom passing is THE entire point of transitioning. Others find that acceptance is more important. And for some, it's a package deal.

But as long as someone isn't doing this purely to mimick the appearance of their target sex, then sure, it's possible.

It seems people always assume that getting read means getting "sirred" (for M2Fs). But it's just not the case. When people notice a contradiction between presentation and biology, they have to make a decision as to how to treat you. And IMHO, if you're intentions are clear, people will generally go along with it.

Is that enough? I dunno, as I hate to feel "humoured" or AS IF. But I don't think we give people enough credit sometimes. Our gender issues are huge to us, but to everyone else... they just want to make their flight, pick up their kids, get their pizza, etc. Being read doesn't necessarily make their treatment of us any less genuine.

And again, many of us transition assuming that we WON'T ever pass. We transition expecting this to be the case. Yet... we do it anyway, as it seems better than the alternative. "All I know is if I stay here like this, I'll die here like this" is one of my last journal entries before I committed to this.

~Kate~

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.

does them being the majority mean they can live as thier target gender?
provide some evidence that this 90% of transpeople are living as thier target gender...
R

are you living as your target gender?

I AM my target gender now, theres no aiming, or living
R

Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:58:46 AM
Can one live as their target gender without passing?
(other than in ultra trans' accepting cities such as San Fran)

When I transitioned in 1993, I lived in a rural town in Virginia. No HRT, nada, I don't think I passed worth a damn, and everybody knew me anyway. People treated me as my target gender, or at least they were polite and humored me 

Regrettably, I'm not living outwardly as target gender currently. My partner and close friends know who I am and accept me completely, however I'm invisible to most people. And I feel a lot of pain about that. If I were to live as openly androgyne now, my presentation would be pretty ambiguous, ie, I'd likely look like a "man in a dress". It's possible that I could probably get away with this where I live, not sure what is keeping me from it... other than fear, and also reality of financial repercussions or violence.

y2g

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.

I also would like to see some relible studies done that show this?

I think 90% is way off.

If your a hulking frame with strong male features,
no HRT will help and you won't pass.
But, from my experience, 20% are like that
initially (without FFS).

After FFS, the hulking frame won't help,
but their passability will increase to near 90-95%.

Also from my experience, in general,
about 75% will pass 90-98% without FFS
About  5%  will pass     98%-100% without FFS.
about  2%  will pass    100% (no doubts ever in anybody) without FFS.

i take it the 75 is with ffs not without?
and theres a rogue 2% Kiera honey
id like to say im in the first group, but im probably in the 5...
R

What can an unpassing F2M do to make it obvious he identifies as a man, and not a butch lesbian?

~Kate~

i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..

and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.

however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.

i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.

theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.

i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.

most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.

Thats where the problem is.

QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?

perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?

when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.

i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.

maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.

its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 03:37:37 PM
i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..

and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.

however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.

i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.

theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.

i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.

most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.

Thats where the problem is.

QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?

perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?

when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.

i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.

maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.

its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.

I'm not one to join in on these conversations when they get to this point, but I feel I should say something.  I don't care if you believe that 100% of transsexuals do not pass, due to some obvious blatant wrong that you happen to see in them.  Regardless, holding people up to such high standards is rather elitist, not realistic.  I'm curious myself as to what is 'blatantly wrong' with me?  I have pics up in the bored girls post pics thread and theres a video of me speaking in my blog into a camera with a crappy mic.  I would ask about several others here who I believe are absolutely amazing, but I won't bring up their names in case they do not wish to be critiqued by yourself.

Quoteholding people up to such high standards is rather elitist, not realistic.

its not about standards, its about people seeing a woman, instead of a man with a gender problem.. Perhaps your content with the latter, kat, but dont get angry if others are not.

I feel sorry for people in our situation, its horrible, but lying about the situation is not a way out of it. Telling each other how wonderful we all look, posting  pictures of ourselves trying so hard to hide the real truth is something very destructive and is not going ultimately going to help anyone ever build any kind of self-esteem.

i've yet to see a passable transexual in real life, and yet, i seem to see several on the various internet forums i've entered. It doesnt add up to me. Something is not quite as it seems..

you know, self-esteem, comes from within, not from a camera lens or a webcamera, but from experiences in life, at least for me.

the first time i stood up infront of a class and made it clear i was female, was worth every single nice picture i ever took of myself x1000. I reminded myself of who i was, and i did it in front of lots of people. People saying nice things about how you look can make you feel good for a short while, but standing up for who you are makes you feel good permanently.

Now if my gender is ever questioned, i am beggining to be confident and can respond quickly and appropriately.

i suppose posting pictures on an internet forum is how many inexperienced transexuals start out, but you know, im no elitist, and i certainly don't set the standards, and likewise i didn't invent transexuality. I didn't design how men and women look. I didnt make some men have square jaws and others round ones.. Im not better than anyone else, i have my own transexual blatant problems too.

QuoteAttitude has a lot to do with passing too I think.

without a doubt that is true. If you are confident in your identity, it tends to shine outwards. To get the confidence, you have to get out into the real world and show the world who you are, no ->-bleeped-<-ing around.