So, I have known guy for some time now, couple of years +.  Recently, he's told me and shown me his self lubricating neo vagina.  I'm a happily married man, so no, we're not going there.  However, here's where it's strange to me.  He lives his life as a straight male.  He says he has a couple of male friends that are 'into it' and are his FWB and they satisfy each other sexually.

So, I asked him why he had the inversion surgery if he wasn't going live as a female to which he replied. "Just something I did when I was younger."

I was awe struck.  I can't believe this.  I thought that there was lots of counseling and group sessions stuff to keep this surgery from being a "mistake" (for lack of a better term) .  Is this common?  My question is that, does this happen often?  Any thoughts from the women here (or men too!)

I'm not sure if MtF would be the best word here if that's not how he identifies, but... Part of me suspects you may have been trolled by a non-op transman.

It is uncommon, but not impossible. The other day someone posted here wanting to do just that, and most reactions he got were negative. That's how uncommon it is, it goes further away from gender norms than we already do.

There are lots of controls before you can get GRS, too many for the taste of some who refer to that as gatekeeping. But still, it's not impossible to go around that if you have the money and find a surgeon that will take it in exchange of breaking a few laws. If that's what he did, he risked his life. Usually the surgeons who do that are the ones who can't make their living through a honest practice, or aren't even real surgeons.

But you know how they say the simplest explanation is usually true. I think your friend is a trans guy and he's having a big laugh at your expense. Honestly, I just want to high five him.

That honestly never even crossed my mind, but that actually does make the most sense.  I think you're probably right and I got punked, and all I saw was actually an everyday, run of the mill, regular ol' female vagina.  LMAO That makes me feel like an idiot, sheesh.  I suck at life, haha!

I'll ask him this weekend, but yes... I think the laughs are on me.  Hahaha, I feel sooo naive *sigh*

While the above post is correct, sometimes mistakes are made. Mistakes aren't common but I have had an email exchange with one such person. We want the surgery so bad at times that we will lie and not take all factors into consideration. Sometimes therapy after the fact will make up for what wasn't done before surgery and the person will become happy in the new role. Other times a person might revert back to the old role.

Reassignment surgery was once considered a possible way to make gay comfortable with their lifestyle. This was only true for a short while but it is a consideration when evaluating a person for surgery that their motivation isn't identity but is instead a way to accept their gay life style.

Don't feel naive about this because it takes most of us years to understand ourselves. As this appears to be your first exposure to this area, there is much you don't know about us. We welcome people who accept us and wish to learn more about us so feel free to ask us any more questions you might have.

Wow, Dena.  I appreciate that, the offering to answer questions, as I am not familiar with transgender.  My biggest fear is hurting someones feelings by using the wrong word or pronoun.  That would never be my intent, ever, just not my personality.  I try to always make sure people around me are happy unless they want me to be sad with them, in which case I can be empathetic.

I have been reading through the forums for a few days now, and I can say that you all are amazing people and I'm very intrigued/interested in your lifestyle, but would never want to ever been an imposition or offend anyone.

At any rate, I appreciate the offer, sincerely.  I will try to keep questions in the appropriate forums as this thread is already trying to derail (because of me) and most mods don't particularly care for that.

As long as your are honest with us, we understand a few mistakes. There are times here where I even have to think about gendering because it at times can become complex. We explore lifestyles here and often the people coming here don't really know where they fit. They ask questions that often are not clear and conflicting and we need to pick out the needed information or ask more direct questions to understand what this person whats to know. I have given plastic surgery information to women who wish to remain so, have help the parents of children who are transgender and a few like yourself come here to learn about us. Most of my time here I spend helping people deal with their issues.

As for me, you will find it hard to insult me with a simple mistake. I am 63 years old had have been dealing with this  starting at age 13. I had my surgery in 1982. I am comfortable discussing anything I have learned in those years in general and I am comfortable enough with my self that you may ask personal questions of me without worrying about insulting me. Do be warned I have a twisted sense of humor and can dish it out if needed.

If there is a thread already going with a subject you are interested in, feel free to join. Otherwise you might want to stay with this thread were I will know when you post and I can respond to your questions.

Quote from: Promethea on July 30, 2015, 10:06:52 AM
There are lots of controls before you can get GRS, too many for the taste of some who refer to that as gatekeeping. But still, it's not impossible to go around that if you have the money and find a surgeon that will take it in exchange of breaking a few laws. If that's what he did, he risked his life. Usually the surgeons who do that are the ones who can't make their living through a honest practice, or aren't even real surgeons.

Hi Promethea, I'd like to clarify this, as I spent some time looking into it.

There's no laws stopping a surgeon doing this, and if its in the patients interest then it is correct thing to do. That's usually the role of the psych to determine, but even so there's no laws on that either. I'd guess there's some kind of malpractice if its not in the patients interest, but that's quite different. I'm pretty sure you can get a mainstream surgeon to do it as well.

WPATH is not a law, its a best practices document, written by a bunch of people who wrote a document, and has just as much legal force as one I'd write myself. In some ways its a shame its not a law as it might help reduce gatekeeping, but personally I don't entirely agree with it and I'm happy to leave it the way it is. WPATH clearly does have some influence, but I get the impression that "we" take it more seriously than the medical profession does. I'm not sure many actually know whats in it even when they say they follow it.

There's one law I know of directly on this subject, and that's in Thailand. It is very short and basically states you need a letter from a foreign psych and one local saying that you need it. That's basically it. You can see this reflected in some of the Thai surgeons official SRS requirements.

As to when its in someones interest, perhaps they are someone who is transgender but can't socially transition. Or like the person who posted the other day, perhaps they are as sane as the rest of us and need it to stay that way. The other way, if your are on HRT, would be to lie about everything and get it signed off, and there's nothing to blame a surgeon for there either. I can't see that being illegal either. Stupid maybe.

Thanks AnonyMs.  I did wonder if it were 'laws' or more of a 'code of ethics'.  I would think that a surgeon would want the GRS to be in everyone's best interest.  As with any surgery, there are risks involved, but with this one there's so much more.  I'm thinking that those that do 'qualify' it's almost as though they come out feeling 'normal' for the first time their life.  If anything besides that feeling of 'normal' were the case, I would think the results could be catastrophic.  That's why I was asking to begin with.  Now I think I got trolled, but I came into this concerned about just that, a catastrophic ending to what can be the best thing ones life.

In my years, I've grown to have certain thoughts about subjects that I know very little about, such as transgender.  I have my ideas on why people are gay or lesbian, I believe that they're born that way, it isn't a choice.  They grow up being taught that relationships are M2W and slowly begin to feel that they go against mainstream beliefs such as being attracted to their own sex, both physically and emotionally.  I have many gay and lesbian friends.  Some are Christian, some aren't.  Some live the gay pride life, they're very open and outspoken about themselves, some go against that and are reclusive and happily live their lives quietly with their partners just as my wife and I do.

Sorry for the ground work, moving on.  Do transgender feel the way they feel because they were born that way?  Do they find themselves attracted to the same sex while relating closer to the opposite sex?  Do all transgender people want to have GRS?  Is it like gay or lesbian only with the added desire to become the opposite sex?  Is it the same as being a femme male, with an extra step involved of wanting to be a complete female, or is it not related to gay/lesbian at all?  I'm guessing there are all different "levels" ( For lack of a better term again, sorry), from CD/TV all the way to completely anatomically correct females (I'm sorry that all my references are to MtF, I'm interested in both MtF and FtM) or are CD/TV not considered transgender at all?  I've heard the term intersex used for youth only, is it the same too, as transgender?

I think that's enough for today.  If you don't care to hit them all, I understand.  Again, if I offended you or anyone else with anything, correct me and I'll make a mental note  to not let it happen again.

I'll be brief as I can.

"Transgender" is an umbrella term covering Cross-dressing, ->-bleeped-<-s, transsexuals, non-binary, agender, gender-fluid and probably some other ones that I'm forgetting.  It's a catch-all for anyone not adhering to the male/female binary that is imposed on us by society.

It is commonly believed (and there have been studies) that we are born this way.  Sex is what's between your legs, and Gender is what's between your ears.  Both are things we are born with.  I don't like the terms gay, lesbian, straight, etc...  I think it's extremely limiting.  I'm a biologically straight male for instance, but I'm also gendered as a lesbian.  I am attracted to women however you want to look at it, and the terminology really doesn't fit.  It should be exclusively about who we are attracted to, and have nothing to do with what we are.  And on a more personal note, there are some hot guys out there too I'm learning, rawr!

But I digress.

We are born being what we are, and at some point we realize that things got screwed up at the genitalia factory.  So our bodies produce the wrong hormones for how we self-identify, but it's all a matter of how we are allowed to explore our own identity when growing up as to when each of us realize this, or are allowed to realize it, and then what we do with it from there.  Everyone's needs are different.  Some of us need to fully transition to the opposite sex as far as possible, while others are happy living somewhere in the middle.

First the causes of transsexualism. It's not proven but indications are we have the wrong gender programmed into our brain before birth due to hormone exposure. You can read more about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

We are not cookie cutter images of each other and experience different emotions about this in my case, it was my role in life that make me uncomfortable. A example to you would be think of waking up each day and having to live life as a woman instead of a man. Others feel uncomfortable with parts of their body such as a FTM being uncomfortable with their breast. Pretty common is us is we understand what the sex hormones do to us is something we don't like and we almost carve the sex hormones of the opposite gender.
We all feel for what ever reason that we were born in the wrong body and want to do something to bring our body closer to matching our brain.

While all of us were born this way, some know as early as 3 years of age what they are. Many like me figure it out when we enter puberty. A few discover it much latter in life but there are many who know in puberty and suppress it until much later in life. It mostly a mater of when we are willing to admit it to ourself.

As we are not cookie cutter, our treatment isn't either. Many like me go all the way and have surgery. Others find some compromise that make them comfortable without surgery. In my case, had surgery not been available, I could have survived by cross living because living as a woman filled enough emotional needs. Don't get me wrong, I did want the surgery and I never have regretted it. If you are on this board long enough you will find a number of poster who for one reason or another are comfortable without surgery. I consider them to be my equals but their needs were a bit different than mine.

The standard lecture. All people have two things and they are independent from each other
1. Gender identity is who you want to go to bed as
2. Sexual Preference is who you want to go to bed with.

We are no different from others and we can be heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual and Asexual before or after surgery. There are a few other you will learn about if you hang around here but those are the main ones. One difference is that in coming to terms with our gender identity, we often come to terms with our sexual preference and find we are more flexible that we thought. An example would be MTFs who were only with women before treatment may enjoy the company of men after surgery. On the other hand, it isn't uncommon for MTFs to remain with their wife after surgery. There is no telling and it is up to the person transitioning as to what their future life will look like.

Pretty much everything above applies to MTF or FTM and I see the same thing in both my sisters and brothers that I see in myself. The difference between our paths are mostly physical. In general it's harder going from MTF but the surgery is better. Going FTM, the hormones do wonderful things but the surgery isn't as hot.

I am stopping now because I think I have covered most of your questions and I don't want to overthink your questions. If I missed something or you have more questions, let me know.

Edit - I forgot something, Intersex can occur at any age and is the result of a visible genetic defect. They are a very special case and have to be assumed as having gender identity issues unless determined otherwise. There are several here and often discuss their issues.

I like this thread, it is refreshing seeing someone wanting to learn, good job lumpy

Thanks to all of you ladies who took the time to answer my questions and for welcoming me into your nice little corner of the internet.  I'm going let this sink in, I feel like I learned a bunch today.  I'm far from done though!  I'll  be around over the next {however long I'm welcome} trying to learn more, reading, lurking, asking more questions in the near future.  I appreciate all of you and look forward to interacting in the future!!

You are welcome back anytime and you are welcome.

If he's happy with the way he is now, I wouldn't even call that a mistake. If there's no regret, there was no mistake made.

People have an easier time understanding "binary" trans people - people who want to be women or men, but were assigned the wrong gender at birth - than they do those who fall somewhere else on the gender spectrum. There are people who are genderfluid, bigender, genderless, and the list goes on. Personally, I think they should be allowed to alter their own bodies as they see fit, too. Which might mean a person who identifies as primarily male but wants to have a vagina, or any other combination of surgical and identity possibilities. There aren't many surgeons willing to work with someone who won't jump through all the hoops required to prove they want to live as a woman/man, so some non-binary people are in fact forced to tell medical professionals a narrative that isn't fully true to their identities.

(Also, I've had a gynecologist say that I have a "everyday, run of the mill, regular ol' female vagina" even though it's not my factory equipment, so I for one am unwilling to say one way or the other whether what you saw was surgically created. It might've been a prank, but he really might be a non-binary person who had reassignment surgery.)

Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 30, 2015, 05:25:24 PM
There aren't many surgeons willing to work with someone who won't jump through all the hoops required to prove they want to live as a woman/man, so some non-binary people are in fact forced to tell medical professionals a narrative that isn't fully true to their identities.

I'm curious, do you know this for a fact or are you guessing? I have the impression that they don't much care. Their job is surgery, not deciding whats right for people. You get your letter and you're good to go. Or in some cases you don't need a letter, like the penectomy post here recently. I 'm reasonably sure binary transgender can get SRS without social transition, and I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to or something else.

I agree with you on everything else though. Its' a shame people are not more tolerant, and that includes "us".

AnonyMs : I'm thinking specifically of several non-binary friends I know who have had to claim they wanted a binary transition in order to get therapists' letters for surgery. (Primarily top surgery and hysterectomy; for whatever reason, the majority of people I know personally who've done this have been assigned female at birth.) I have one agender friend who cannot get anyone to sign off on anything - HRT or surgery - because they admit up front that they have no intention of living full-time as the "opposite" gender. My wife desperately wants a hysterectomy and was told by my own gender therapist (the same one who lied blatantly multiple times in my HRT letter about how long I'd been in therapy and details of my past and present life because she believes in "assisted informed consent") that "you'd have to come to me and say you want to transition to being a man before I'd write that letter."

I'm not sure what surgeons you have in mind, actually, but the big names (McGinn, Brassard, Bowers, Chettawut, Suporn, and Rumer off the top of my head) all require a year living full-time before GRS, which does actually mean at least a temporary "social transition." In theory, that demands that a person not present as their birth gender even once during that year, though in practice I suspect it's possible to get a lenient therapist to write a letter and/or sneak something by them.

Brassard, my own surgeon, also specifically required a year or more on cross-gender HRT or a letter stating that someone had a medical exemption b/c HRT would jeopardize their health.  I also had to get a second letter from a supporting therapist in order to get GRS, and *that* one demanded that I prove I was interested in men and willing to dress sufficiently femme, so just being a binary trans woman wasn't even enough!

I suspect that someone with a lot of money and free time could search the country until they found medical professionals willing to exploit loopholes or look the other way, but in general, the roadblocks for non-binary people are higher than for binary trans people. Heck, you can look in the non-binary forum on this very board and I bet you'll find similar stories.

Hi Jenna Marie, you've a lot more friends than I have, but that some of that contradicts what I've heard. I'm going to PM you because I don't want to cause anyone any problems.

Hi Lumpy loo, welcome to Susan's.

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Dr Bowers said that one of the reasons she has to follow WPATH standards is because of insurance. I believe this is both malpractice and patients' health insurance coverage.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 30, 2015, 06:01:35 PMr
  I also had to get a second letter from a supporting therapist in order to get GRS, and *that* one demanded that I prove I was interested in men and willing to dress sufficiently femme, so just being a binary trans woman wasn't even enough!

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My counsellor during the 1990s was that old school - you are M-F and had your change to have male partners, NOT female partners.  Thus, he would have had fits if I mentioned having a Lesbian relationship.  I kept my mouth shut instead of talking about it.
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