I guess my answer to the question, Can one live...

Yes, one can live that way.  They might not be happy, they might not be accepted by others.  But they are being true to themselves.


Sarah L.

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 05:02:03 PM

i've yet to see a passable transexual in real life, and yet, i seem to see several on the various internet forums i've entered. It doesnt add up to me. Something is not quite as it seems..

thats since if they pass in real life, how is one to know they are TS?

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 03:37:37 PM
i dont have any studies, i just have what my eyes see..

and when i say 90%, im actually being kind. If i was to base it purely on my expeirence, i'd say that 100% do not pass, some look androgenous.. but thats the best i've seen. Maybe they could be women from a distance, but close up? no chance.

however, im willing to accept that some do, but im yet to meet one.

i've probably met about 30 or 40 now.

theres always something blantantly wrong, if its not the face, its the shoulders, voice or whatever.

i just call spades spades. The sooner transexuals face reality the better.

most have a strange image of themselves in their head, that is not represented to the outside world. They feel like a woman, and everyone else sees a man.

Thats where the problem is.

QuoteI've never personally met another trans person or at least one who didn't pass (thus I didn't know) so is there some specific area(s) "impassables" tend to congregate where I can go and possibly enlighten myself?

perhaps we are confusing what we define as 'passing' kiera?

when i say passing, i dont mean walking down the street, or sitting in a bar or on a bus.

i mean, interacting with and living with people 24/7 who are convinced you are female, no doubts. Anything else is not what i would call passing, its just that people are not observing you properly.

maybe for some people that is enough, but its not for me.

its just my experience that i am commenting on, nothing more.

40 transexuals isnt even close to a registerable percentage...
your quite bias... and saying 100% dont pass to you is quite blaze and really quite nieve... youve probably met transpeople, and youve not noticed, (thats called passing btw)
Personally, my face is female, my body is female, im only 5'9, im well within female hight, my voice is beyond passable, infact if anything, it dispells any doubt to my gender. would you read me? maybe, but i know everyone else in my life takes me as female....
i recently got a job in a pub, and my name was down as androgynous, male or female, i was at the interview wearing a pair of baggy jeans and a university hoodie... they took me as female then, they havent changed thier view, many of the other female staff have raised sensative topics around, or with me, id think they dont suspect... including suggesting once when i had stomach pain, that it was totm cramps... they wouldnt suggest that to a transperson would they now?

oh, some people on the net pass, yet no transpeopel youve met irl do... OBVOUSLY were all liars and fakes pretending and really im a 40yo man with a beard and beer belly, sorry to fool you all! [/sarcasm]youve not met enough to make that suggestion by your own admission.
i do agree though, passing is interaction. and a lot of TS fail there, but not all do, infact a LOT  also suceed. if it acts like a woman, smells like one, looks like one, talks like one, how do you know shes trans at the end of the day? do you have chromosome vision?
R

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
you know, self-esteem, comes from within, not from a camera lens or a webcamera, but from experiences in life, at least for me.

This I agree with. But I also think many people find the courage to get out there and DO that by getting validation and encouragement via posting pictures.

Plus it's always nice to be told you're pretty

QuoteTelling each other how wonderful we all look, posting  pictures of ourselves trying so hard to hide the real truth is something very destructive and is not going ultimately going to help anyone ever build any kind of self-esteem

Chasing the ghost of 100% passability is even more destructive, and ALSO used as a crutch to avoid developing self-esteem.

IMHO, the idea is to realize you are who you, whether you pass or not. Obviously, it's great to pass... but if you don't START from within, and everything depends upon never being read, well... that's a very fragile sense of being.

~Kate~

as easily as some women pass as female 100% i dont think passing 100% for a trans woman is a ghost... its entirely possible imo
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 06:20:08 PM
as easily as some women pass as female 100% i dont think passing 100% for a trans woman is a ghost... its entirely possible imo

(drags our her chromosome scanner...)

Yes, I know, you pass really, really well. I'm just making the point that some people become obsessed with passing, having endless surgeries, endless passing tests, constantly comparing themselves to everyone else like this is all some big TS passability contest...

Instead of just accepting themselves, who they are, and getting on with their lives.

~Kate~

Okay, I'm going to be very blunt here and please remember that this is just MY opinion and not a Tink's law of any sort.


True, many people don't care and claim to be their "own woman" or "man" and that is perfectly fine as long as these same people don't complain when society doesn't accept "their version of womanhood or manhood".

Now I've met so many people during my life.  Some women like Janet from work try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is.  She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there. 

Naturally, people treat her "like" a woman, call her "Janet" and use the correct pronouns when she is around; however, behind her back, these same people talk hell about her, complain about her using the ladie's room, switch back to male pronouns, etc, etc, etc.  It is really sickening, if you ask me.

My point here is:  my co-workers are treating her as "Janet" because there is a state law that forces them to do so but not because they actually perceive her as a woman.  Personally I wouldn't like that either.  I want to be treated as a female because I am female not because of any law or out of pity.


The other group of people I've met are those who claim they are "their own" woman (MTF) or man (FTM); they call themselves "transsexual" but do not want to do absolutely anything to conform with society's stereotypes (in the case of "MTF's" they literally don't give a flying fly about hair removal, improving voice, hormones, etc).  However (and this is what boils my blood  ) they are the first ones to complain, cry, and moan when society doesn't see them as the women or men they claim they are.

So my point here is:  one doesn't have to do anything to adhere to society's gender stereotypes, BUT if we are looking for SOCIETY'S ACCEPTANCE as men or women, then we need to conform to those stereotypes whether we like them or not.

Bottom line:

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

Yes.  Many people do and have done it since only God knows how long.  I think that it is possible to LIVE as men, women, or as whatever we please; however, the question remains:  Are we being PERCEIVED as the gender we are living?  Passing, is IMO, extremely important to be perceived and accepted as our target gender.

tink

Tinks law doesnt exist?
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 06:36:26 PM
Tinks law doesnt exist?
R

  Where is the smite button?  > 

tink

Quote from: Kate on December 05, 2007, 02:46:44 PM
What can an unpassing F2M do to make it obvious he identifies as a man, and not a butch lesbian?

So far as I can tell, nothing.

It seems to me that an unpassing no-op no-ho MtF can express herself as a woman and be accepted as one relatively easily. People will comment, jerks will joke, and she will be in danger from violent transphobic bashers, but if she dresses as a woman and acts like a woman then the message of her identity will be heard. A fair portion of the population will chose simply to accept her "I am a woman," message at face value and treat her accordingly. She may find it unsatisfying, because her not-passing will leave her forever with the question, "Is this person seeing the woman I am, or seeing a man with a gender-identity problem and humouring him?"

I'd love to be humoured.

An unpassing trans-man, however, is taken to be expressing womanly strength and independance. His message, "I am a man," is not heard. There is nothing I can do to make it heard. Wearing my suit, I pass at a glance and don't pass at second-glance and what people who glance twice see is not a female-bodied person expressing his manhood, but a woman expressing her freedom to be womanly in some idiosyncratic way.

Aaron Raz Link, in his book What Becomes You talks about this. Before transition, he's shouting at his therapist about how his manner of expressing himself has become all distorted, he tries and tries to send the message that he is not a woman and people respond by saying what a great woman he is. After transition, he's buying a feather boa and talking about how he can wear it now and just be a guy celebrating femininity and expressing femininity. Female-bodied people wearing neckties are not seen as girls celebrating masculinity and expressing their masculinity, they're seen as women expressing feminine power.

its cleverly disguised as the aplaud button... click to smite ktnx...

nah seriously, your quite close to the truth, people can 'accept' something, but dont always ACCEPT it.... people are two faced, such is life.
R

Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Naturally, people treat her "like" a woman, call her "Janet" and use the correct pronouns when she is around; however, behind her back, these same people talk hell about her, complain about her using the ladie's room, switch back to male pronouns, etc, etc, etc.  It is really sickening, if you ask me.

And why some people who don't pass get ridiculed, and why some are STILL treated as their target gender... is a mystery which is driving me mad.

I know nastiness like that happens. But I also know that some TSs are treated with nothing but kindness and respect, and NOT out of pity or compliance to law, but just... because... why shouldn't they be?

~Kate~

because some folk seem to think in thier view, that were mentally ill, to be humoured...
R

Tink,
I agree, without passing,
you may be target gender,
but are not living the life of someone of your
target gender.

If you don't pass most of the time, like the prototypical Janet,
then you don't get treated like a women by even the most civil
of people. People have automated responses to gender and
those won't kick in and you'll wind up being a special case and
people will act in special non automated ways.

My evaluation is that at least 3/4 of Ts
pass at least 95% of the time if they make
the effort, especially if they start in a new job
after some time on HRT and a name changed.
So, for them, they mostly live the life
of someone of their gender, especially if they live
in an area where people are civil and those
that have doubt don't act out on it.

For most TS, that very close stab at perfect integration is
enough and more than they ever hoped for initially.

Quote from: Kate on December 05, 2007, 06:52:35 PM
But I also know that some TSs are treated with nothing but kindness and respect, and NOT out of pity or compliance to law, but just... because... why shouldn't they be?

~Kate~

Oh I'm sure there are, but my experience is very limited in regards to "not-so-passable" TS's who are treated with respect and seriousness (except those who are celebrities of course).  What can I say?  People are just mean and terribly ignorant when it comes to gender issues.  Mostly they consider us (MTF's) "super sissies" who "chose" to "become" women because we couldn't cut it as men .  I mean, how do you fight against such blind ignorance?

tink

with bigger guns?
R

the recoil of a big gun hurts.

some times, fighting back reinforces the negative view the other person has.

thats why you get a nice guy to hold it for you, and stand there smiling sweetly with the binoculars calling him targets
sometimes, fighting back shows them we arnt some joke group they can kick around and abuse...
LGB did it...
R

A person can live their life as anything they want to, the problem is that if you are not accepted what's the point, their lives will be sheer misery; not really a life at all.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on December 05, 2007, 08:46:49 PM
A person can live their life as anything they want to, the problem is that if you are not accepted what's the point, their lives will be sheer misery; not really a life at all.

Must someone pass to be accepted? Can someone pass for a woman (or man), while not passing for a genetic female (or male)?

~Kate~