that, unfortunately, society has its ways of forcing you to conform to its standards.
Not only society, but biology, too.

I think this is going to be my last pessimistic post for a while. I don't want you guys to get the impression that I'm always sad lol. I'm not. I just keep getting pulled down lower and lower.

I've begun to consider bottom surgery. Not for myself, but for society, and if I want to be happy in society. If I can achieve at least an average level of happiness, great. Bless you asexuals; you don't have to deal with this.
I keep getting told over and over, sometimes explicitly, other times very subtly to not offend..."If I wanted to be with a man, I would date a normal biological guy"(bisexual girl). "I am not interested in homosexual relations...everyone has their preference...I hope you understand" (straight girls).

While all my male friends actively flirt with girls, date, occasionally indulge in casual sex, I've forcefully pushed my feelings away.  This has caused me to resort to irrational addictive sexual behavior. I no longer know how to openly flirt with women...

I'm happy in every other part of my life besides the most important: love, relationships, intimacy. For young people in their 20s, almost everything revolves around these. We're at our sexual peak.
So, because of this, I'm seriously considering phalloplasty even though I don't outright want it for myself. I need it. I want it to have normal relationships with women. You can't escape the fact that the majority of conversations among young guys is about sex and women. I'm just as hormonally-drive as them, but I can't indulge in life's greatest gift.

If I have to sacrifice a part of myself in order to achieve happiness, is this logical? Morally permissible?

consider this: would you really want to be with someone or hook up with someone who thinks as those girls do? probably not.

you shouldn't change something like that, which is a big deal, because you feel left out. lots of trans guys go about having casual sex, flirting, etc. i think it's your own insecurities holding you back along with the fact you haven't been with girls who get what being trans is, that you are a "normal guy" and you aren't a woman. they didn't respect your identity. it might seem hard to do all these things now, but also consider this: you get with a woman, you have a functioning penis. she wants kids and you can't give her them. then what? there will always be obstacles and if you keep going down that route, you won't be happy. you will be just hating that you can't do what cis guys can do.

it might take a bit more time for trans guys to find someone who gets what being trans is about, and understand we are real men. some will say date within the LGBT community but that doesn't always work. i've only been with straight women and i have had no issues. be confident, be comfortable with who you are, and if you really don't wanna go through with it then don't. you aren't hopeless or whatever because of it. a lot of us have successful relationships and hook ups without T, surgery, etc. that might seem like an easy fix now, but it won't be in the end.

Sounds like you're not approaching the right people, honestly. You either need to educate them on what being trans means (that you ARE a man despite the slightly different anatomy), or find new people who get it already. My social circle has always been very LGBTQ+ friendly and straight ally heavy, and it has not been hard for me to find open-minded straight and bisexual cis-women to date.

You only get one body. Don't do something you don't want to it just because the girls you're talking to are crappy and/or ignorant people.

Quote from: ftmax on July 30, 2015, 10:18:31 AM
You only get one body. Don't do something you don't want to it just because the girls you're talking to are crappy and/or ignorant people.

This. Holy wow, so very well put. Think of it this way: if you do find a girl/some girls who would be into you after you get this - how long would it last? If a long time... do you want to be with someone who only cares about you if you change your body to fit *their* expectations? I know it's hard when you're aching for someone to connect to, but doing this now may just make you hate yourself *more* down the line, if/when someone leaves and you're left with a body you don't want.

Max mentioned LGBTQ* people being more encouraging - I know you've found lesbians (if I'm reading you right?) not to be into you, but I promise you there *are* many - including many women who specifically are into trans guys. Have you tried (I know, I know, it can be pretty frustrating) dating online, or joining up with local trans support groups? Might be a good avenue to connect with people who - even if they aren't looking for sex/relationships - are going to respect your identity and support/celebrate you being *you.*

Well, I might be inclined to say that having a phalloplasty will not guarantee that you will have any "normal relationships with women"  I think any loving intimate relationship can be normal if it involves the right people, despite anatomical discrepancies.  You have not yet found the right person...and perhaps are still working on your own way to be comfortable in the world...for yourself.  Yes, yourself! Do not let society tell you who you must be.  You are the only one who knows who you are and how you navigate the world, and it is okay if you do not fit any particular label.  Challenging, yes, but definitely okay.

I know, it can really suck!  But life is a journey, and a process of discovery, and sometimes we are with people we love, and sometimes we are alone. There is no magic formula for love, intimacy, and relationships, but I can tell you that the answer is likely NOT found through unwanted surgery.  Phalloplasty is a serious medical undertaking, and should be done only if YOU want it for yourself and have fully considered the risks and limitations. You are a unique individual, no matter what your flesh looks like below the belt, and having more experiences that connect you with many different types of people is how you will find your way...it takes time.  Patience...

Quote from: invisiblemonsters on July 29, 2015, 06:42:30 PM
consider this: would you really want to be with someone or hook up with someone who thinks as those girls do? probably not.

you shouldn't change something like that, which is a big deal, because you feel left out. lots of trans guys go about having casual sex, flirting, etc. i think it's your own insecurities holding you back along with the fact you haven't been with girls who get what being trans is, that you are a "normal guy" and you aren't a woman. they didn't respect your identity. it might seem hard to do all these things now, but also consider this: you get with a woman, you have a functioning penis. she wants kids and you can't give her them. then what? there will always be obstacles and if you keep going down that route, you won't be happy. you will be just hating that you can't do what cis guys can do.

it might take a bit more time for trans guys to find someone who gets what being trans is about, and understand we are real men. some will say date within the LGBT community but that doesn't always work. i've only been with straight women and i have had no issues. be confident, be comfortable with who you are, and if you really don't wanna go through with it then don't. you aren't hopeless or whatever because of it. a lot of us have successful relationships and hook ups without T, surgery, etc. that might seem like an easy fix now, but it won't be in the end.

I honestly see where these girls are coming from. I consider everyone's preference as valid. They absolutely see me as just any other guy, but they don't want any romantic/sexual relations with me. I know that many members of the trans community are pansexual, but the world is primarily hetero. If you consider it from their perspective, it's fair, because it's biology. You can befriend and love anyone, but that doesn't mean you are sexually interested in them. Identity is identity, but sex is another issue. One of my closest straight friends was an LGBT supporter and had known many trans people. She knew exactly what trans was, but she was a very sexual woman and she knew exactly what she wanted, physically and emotionally. She could only get it with bio men.
I'm not pansexual either...with fully sincerity, I'm attracted to females with female anatomy. It's just not something I can change. If we were all pansexual, there wouldn't exist ideas of straight, gay, bi, etc.... Identity is one thing, but preference to a specific sex is another.
But yes - I am insecure about it. I've developed extreme insecurity only recently, after getting rejected several times.
I am very curious...could you share with me some of your experiences with straight women? Did it ever lead to more than just a few casual dates?

Quote from: ftmax on July 30, 2015, 10:18:31 AM
Sounds like you're not approaching the right people, honestly. You either need to educate them on what being trans means (that you ARE a man despite the slightly different anatomy), or find new people who get it already. My social circle has always been very LGBTQ+ friendly and straight ally heavy, and it has not been hard for me to find open-minded straight and bisexual cis-women to date.

You only get one body. Don't do something you don't want to it just because the girls you're talking to are crappy and/or ignorant people.

They absolutely do get it though - that's the thing (check my reply above to invisiblemonsters). Straight allies still desire what they desire. I have no say in their preferences, all I can do is respect them and see it from their perspective.

Quote from: ThatElliotGuy on July 30, 2015, 12:07:05 PM
This. Holy wow, so very well put. Think of it this way: if you do find a girl/some girls who would be into you after you get this - how long would it last? If a long time... do you want to be with someone who only cares about you if you change your body to fit *their* expectations? I know it's hard when you're aching for someone to connect to, but doing this now may just make you hate yourself *more* down the line, if/when someone leaves and you're left with a body you don't want.

Max mentioned LGBTQ* people being more encouraging - I know you've found lesbians (if I'm reading you right?) not to be into you, but I promise you there *are* many - including many women who specifically are into trans guys. Have you tried (I know, I know, it can be pretty frustrating) dating online, or joining up with local trans support groups? Might be a good avenue to connect with people who - even if they aren't looking for sex/relationships - are going to respect your identity and support/celebrate you being *you.*

I've had so much more luck with lesbians than with straight girls, but of course not everyone is the same. They are much more likely to date me than straight girls - this I know for sure. It's understandable. It doesn't mean they don't see me as a guy, they just prefer their own sex (which I am still part of, and I'm totally cool with admitting it). Ah - I know that there are indeed many women who are only in to trans guys, but they are hard to find ._. I knew one, and she was a total b**** who played with my mind for 7 months, while sleeping with nearly every trans guy she met. She didn't want a relationship.
Local trans group - only pre-T trans guys 16 and under. Nope. Online dating - it's always been my go-to place even when I lived as a lesbian, and ALWAYS worked, but now it's dead. -.-

Quote from: HeyTrace19 on July 30, 2015, 12:53:35 PM
Well, I might be inclined to say that having a phalloplasty will not guarantee that you will have any "normal relationships with women"  I think any loving intimate relationship can be normal if it involves the right people, despite anatomical discrepancies.  You have not yet found the right person...and perhaps are still working on your own way to be comfortable in the world...for yourself.  Yes, yourself! Do not let society tell you who you must be.  You are the only one who knows who you are and how you navigate the world, and it is okay if you do not fit any particular label.  Challenging, yes, but definitely okay.

I know, it can really suck!  But life is a journey, and a process of discovery, and sometimes we are with people we love, and sometimes we are alone. There is no magic formula for love, intimacy, and relationships, but I can tell you that the answer is likely NOT found through unwanted surgery.  Phalloplasty is a serious medical undertaking, and should be done only if YOU want it for yourself and have fully considered the risks and limitations. You are a unique individual, no matter what your flesh looks like below the belt, and having more experiences that connect you with many different types of people is how you will find your way...it takes time.  Patience...

Thank you Trace! That was really encouraging. I know that the only way for me to meet another girl is to connect myself with new people. I'm always around the same group of people and we tend to build relationships, fall in love, etc within that one group. I've gone through multiple crushes within that group, got rejected, and most of the girls are in relationships with cis guys who give them the love they need. I'm happy for them. I just feel left out, but I'm happy when others are happy.
You're right though...I just need patience. My time will come. I just haven't met the right girl yet.
It just always feels like...yeah, I don't fit any label. I'm not appealing to straight girls nor am I appealing to lesbians. I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere. If I haven't transitioned...I'd never be happy with myself, but I would be able to be in fulfilling relationships with girls. I picked myself over relationships, but even now, I'm miserable. It was misery either way. I guess it's always either-or in life...

of course some women won't like what you have going on down there, but then that's when you find someone who does, right? i was with my ex (straight, cis gender woman) for 7 years so i know you can very well be in a relationship with a woman who sees you as male and have no issues with your biological stuff. as for dates, i'm not really dating because i was so focused on my transition, school, and work but the few dates i did have, they weren't put off by me being transgender. all were straight, cis gender women. one of them even wanted to be friends with benefits so it could have lead to more but i wasn't into it. as long as you're confident and a woman doesn't mind what you have going on down there, you'll be fine. i get why a woman might wanna be with a cis guy but the women i have encountered haven't even been with a trans guy and were open to it.

if you wanna get a feel for a woman, do online dating that way you can discuss it all before you even go on a date then hit it off and see where it goes from there.

Trying to date within your social circle might be tripping you up in a lot of ways. I know most of my close friends would not consider dating or casually doing each other. I feel very similarly. I have no interest in messing with any of the dynamics of my social group, and I would absolutely use an excuse like a very specific sexual preference to deflect unwanted interest despite the fact that they're all very great people.

I'm straight. I haven't had any difficulties meeting women online. I also haven't had any trouble getting dates through friends. Ask your friends if they know anyone who's single and looking, or if they can think of anyone that they would set you up with. Chances are one of them can think of someone who isn't going to be a complete waste of your time.

FWIW, I met my current girlfriend online in a group for writers. She is bisexual, and in the past was only into casual dates with guys and not much sex-wise. Luckily, she is 100% picking up what I'm putting down, and has assured me that my future plans for bottom surgery have no affect on our relationship. Proof that unicorns exist, you just have to find one.

My wife (16years) knows about my desire for phalloplasty. She is a cis gender female who prior to our relationship, only dated cis men. We have used toys plenty of times. She sees my phalloplasty as an exciting prospect...we won't have to spend time fumbling around with a strap on lol. Personally, my dreams will come true when it's time for the very DAUNTING surgery. It's incredibly dysphoric For me to imagine how my wife would compare my male genitalia to some cis guy she's been with. I just have to trust what she says...that it's me she loves to be with.

I'm romantic asexual..so maybe my advice won't help you much...but I was in similar situation because people around me care about sexual part of relationship
Maybe you can ask yourself whether you would accept(as a sexual partner) a woman in a wheelchair..or a woman who had her breast removed due to cancer..or a woman whose body is covered with scars from previous surgeries?A woman with some kind of congenital malformation?Both answers are ok!

I think that you should undergo phalloplasty only if YOU want it and need it in order to feel complete...