mentioned that before.... look like your target gender, talk like it, act like it, and you ARE it.... thus living the life of your target gender...
if you fail anywhere along that road, imo, your living a life _close_ to your target genders, sometimes as it, sometimes not, fail at 2 or all 3? well you cant really ever live as your target life, just like it.
R

Quote from: Kate on December 06, 2007, 10:40:38 AM

Quote from: Tink on December 05, 2007, 06:33:24 PM
Now I've met so many people during my life.  Some women like Janet from work try extremely hard to fit the stereotypes of what being a woman is.  She is currently living fulltime, wearing female attire at all times, going to therapy, taking hormones and speech lessons, etc, etc. Basically she is in her real life test living and working as a woman 24/7/365, but she doesn't pass and hence she has been encountering some problems with some people there.

See, this is what I'm trying to figure out: what is it about her that gets her picked on? Is it really as simple as her not passing? Or does she look "incongruent," meaning showing up with a beard shadow, body hair... and skirt and heels? What is her "presentation" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) like? Does it SEEM like an artificial "presentation?"

I get that we need to play within the rules and expectations of society, and can't simply demand acceptance while not making any effort to fit in. I GET that.

But I'm not entirely sure that not-passing by itself is what gets people picked on. I realize the "100% passing or it's not worth it!" people disagree, but I swear it has something to do with being TOO incongruent, too much contrast, too much stereotyped behaviour/appearance overlaying too many masculine traits.

And if it's truly possible to not pass yet STILL find acceptance to some degree, then one can still live as their target gender without passing.

~Kate~

Hmmm...I am not sure whether I should go into details about why she is not perceived as a woman.  But let me say something:  when you see a tomboyish woman, why do you think people clock her as female?  IMO, it is her features (facial, body shape, voice, mannerisms, etc) that give her away, wouldn't you think?  I think the same mechanism is used by people when some of us are read.  Perceiving biological sex in a person is an automatic response.  People only go by what they see on the outside and the cues they get when they meet us are sufficient for that perception.

tink

I agree on that. Its automatic, and that's what frustrates so many TS here and elsewhere, the seeming "unfairness" of this assessment. We've had some heated discussion on the subject in this group.

Its a combination of many thing, not one, although one highly incongrous detail can rock the assessment one way or the other.

People will assess you as male presenting as female, not
as a women. This will change behavior in the interaction
since it will go outside learned automatism and learned
behavior and go into fully conscious actions.

Its like driving a car the first time VS after 10 years.

Someone who's use to meeting TS, may have an
automated learned behavior and may treat them
like they would a women.

My own interaction with GG's who are used to be
around TS. One was friend of someone who's mother
was a TS and she has had many contacts with them,
including with me :-). I believe that she treats me
as she would another women. She's
my best friend BTW, god she's great!

I know some will disagree, but I think that anyone can pass who wants to.  OK I'll duck now so start throwing things.  Certainly, it's harder for some than others.  Some need surgery, etc. and some need time to learn.  But everyone can look her/his best, despite very trying circumstances.  There are people who can and will help.  Like many on here, I've gone out and found those people.  It takes money and it takes dedication.  translation:  WORK  But when I see someone who doesn't even come close to passing, I only have one thought:  Lazy!  Of course if they don't care about passing that's their own deal.  But if they are living as their target and don't take the time to learn to pass well, they should not complain or be surprised at the needling that is bound to happen.  I know it takes time to learn, but if I am to live in my real gender I know I must work very hard to make my dreams come true.  We are social creatures.  Without that crucial two-way interaction with society as our target gender we are certainly not living as our target gender.  In our culture, it will never happen without passing.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on December 06, 2007, 10:14:29 PM
I know some will disagree, but I think that anyone can pass who wants to.  OK I'll duck now so start throwing things.  Certainly, it's harder for some than others.  Some need surgery, etc. and some need time to learn.  But everyone can look her/his best, despite very trying circumstances.  There are people who can and will help.  Like many on here, I've gone out and found those people.  It takes money and it takes dedication.  translation:  WORK  But when I see someone who doesn't even come close to passing, I only have one thought:  Lazy!  Of course if they don't care about passing that's their own deal.  But if they are living as their target and don't take the time to learn to pass well, they should not complain or be surprised at the needling that is bound to happen.  I know it takes time to learn, but if I am to live in my real gender I know I must work very hard to make my dreams come true.  We are social creatures.  Without that crucial two-way interaction with society as our target gender we are certainly not living as our target gender.  In our culture, it will never happen without passing.

Kristi

Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

I think to answer this question, one has to first separate sex and gender, and to decide what you define as passing.  If by passing, you mean being "read" as having a certain genital configuration, then I think that it is possible.  I think most of what determines "passing" has little to do with genitals and everything to do with how you "accessorize" your body.  For example, though we all assume that Julia Child had "female" genitals, for some reason she always struck me as having a male gender.  For all that we know, she may have had a penis, but that didn't prevent her from living as a woman and being treated as such.  It's kind of hard to think of examples (though I'll try), since most people's gender (we assume) matches their genitals.

Edit:
Oh, I thought of another: does anyone remember the AVON Lady from "Transamerica" that Bree said would never pass, but was actually a "GG" (movie quote, not my designation)?  For lots of people who aren't "trans-aware," clothes are what determines a person's sex.  For example, if person A is wearing a dress, then logically, person A is Mrs. A.

Ok, I'm going to stop using quotation marks now. 

I would hate like hell to try to pass without HRT.  I will give up my estrogen when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

As I see it, there are more elements to passing than we have identified so far.  It's in the eye of the beholder, the beholder who is looking in the mirror and the beholder who is looking at the person who was looking in the mirror.

I believe that comportment has much to do with passing.  Behave and carry yourself as a man and you just might be found to be a man by the person whose mind makes that judgment call within milliseconds of your image hitting their retina.

The same holds for a woman.

IMHO, there is information that has been stored in the physical brain for use by the mind in daily living, like what is light or dark, what does one's own face look like, what a boy, girl, car, cell phone, whatever, looks like.  In milliseconds a perception starts.

The perception is then refined by context.  It's possible to see George W. Bush in drag but it's not likely, no more than a person with a long beard and a cocktail dress is, at second blush, assigned the mental value of "woman."

Whoever sent the quarter, you can keep it.  It's not much, and it's not much of a belief.

Wing Walker
Having Her Perceptions Recalibrated

"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning.

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning.

but what if you are unable to achieve that?

Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 03:09:24 PM

Quote from: Rachael on December 06, 2007, 02:36:16 PM
choose? hmm

Nero: i know several natal females with voices in male range, but nobody notices...

True. There's really no feature unique to transwomen. Any 'masculine' feature possible from voice to brow ridge to adam's apple - there are natal females who share it. It really just depends on one's overall look, presentation, behaviour, and 'aura' if you will.
One 'so called male feature' won't make or break you.

Yeah, it is really the vibe that is most important. I see people here who look female facially but (to me) they vibe male by the way they communicate. Of course, maybe they only vibe that way in text though I doubt it.

Posted on: December 07, 2007, 01:32:44 AM

---

Quote from: Berliegh on December 07, 2007, 01:30:58 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
"Passing" isn't enough for me. I need to be stunning.

but what if you are unable to achieve that?

I was just kidding. I never even thought I would pass much less be a woman  who is constantly objectified. Of all the things I did, the DDs say it more than anything.

Really, I have to pinch myself, all I ever dreamed of was being a chanteuse. I now am performing in clubs, two or three times a week to rave reviews. I am starting to develop a reputation and performing with people who do freaking BROADWAY!

I REALLY need to get serious though and out together my own trio to back me up, I also discovered I can play jazz guitar pretty well now. (I was playing blues and rock.) So this passing stuff is old hat.

I don't think you write like a bloke at all, Berleigh. I love that word Bloke.

Firstly I object to the word 'transwoman'...as I'm I'm not a friggin alien!

and yes I saw a tallish women with a real manly deep voice a few says ago and I was convinced she must be a T.....but I was wrong...

and lastly, Melissa is right....I think I sometimes write with the in your face upfront attitude of a bloke!

why must we gender writing style? women can write how they like... thats the thing about the feminist social revolution. women are empowered to be mean and mild, OR to be as agressive and proactive as males. Its not how you write, its whats IN the writing... the trans community LOVE gendering bloody anything.... you should all move to a country were all objects are gendered in language and you can debate the sex of tables...
I think Kiera has a good point, there is a fear of breaking a few eggs here with regards to the passing issue. We do try to be really nice and inclusive, and unoffending, but some subjects need bluntness. This being one where we could do with cutting the bulls***...
As cute as the Melissa and Berleigh show is, i dont think you two tag teaming along merily
Krisiti: Nice sentiment love, but Passing isnt something you can wish really hard and get... this isnt trans fiction, there arnt magic spells or mad scientists... some people JUST DONT PASS.... or WONT ever... there are a lot that dont try, 'why should i conform to the world when they wont pander to me?' crowd, who dont try to pass as being accepted as female or male is apparently owed to them.
with some people, they physically cant. be it one or more features just SO one sex, it cant pass for the other, and some things bring the rest into question, a transwoman might pass if she were 5'7, but shes got the same features, and 7ft tall... big 'ooh look at that' draws attention, so maybe she doesnt now... most likely not. There are some who can with surgery, some who can without, but its more than just looks, dont get me wrong, looks are a good 60% of passing imo. Walking down the road, on the buss, a character, just another person. but in personal interaction, the last 40% comes in, half voice, half behaviour... ive met a few transwomen, one girl, passes gorgeously visually, vocally quite nicely with a hint of 'hmm wazzat' if your clued in. otherwise totally not. but her behaviour lets her down. the way she sits, walks, top heavy, and lurching... it just says 'not a girl' she gives off masculine signals.... now its always said one cant pass if one looks like a 400lb trucker, with a full beard and bald patch, but even if you look like a freakin model, if you dont sound and behave like one, then to the point of this topic, you cant PHYSICALLY live the life of your 'target' sex.... (i hate that phrase? makes us sound like business people aiming for production targets ><) Passing is like one of those video game quests... you have to have all 3 gemstones, inserted into the magic gemstone holder of doom in the right order, or the fairy godmother gives you a spanking... youve got to have that female vibe that comes from looking female, acting female, and sounding female, its entirely possible, as many transwomen do it heck, vice versa with trans men, its entirely possible, just not for everyone, now the original question was can you live  the live of your target sex without the 3 magic gemstones, and the fairy godmother hot on your heals? dont know, ive not tried. but id wager a good guess at no, like the posters above, people treat you LIKE a woman, or AS a woman, but in thier eyes, you ARNT one.... same with transmen, they see you as a sissy guy, or butch woman, in most cases. now this isnt just knowing, you can pass entirely well, and people can know, and your still a woman ,but its after the initial impression that makes the cookies here... my best friend knows, and she keeps forgetting im trans, im just her best girlfriend.... coworkers used to forget.  if your normal enough, dont ruffle any cages, and have that vibe, you fool thier senses into seeing just a girl...would i have transitioned if i couldnt pass, and therefore couldnt be ME? dunno, id have probably had a good long chat with a pair of razorblades first...
R

I'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..

I take on board what you have to say and agree with you, but it's just points that everyone already knows...

QuoteI'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..

i agree, i think melissa is normally quite to the point, positive and honest, and clearly has experience. Well done melissa, and thankyou. Its not easy to come to terms with who you are, and i get the impression that melissa is as close to it as anyone in here.

of course i could be wrong, which often happens to me.

im quite a vulnerable person really and so i tend to like reading posts from experienced people like melissa and also berleigh and several others, appear to be. They give me a sense of hope.

Conversly, people clearly with little real experience who come in bragging about how female they look when they don't really, make me think that life is total disaster with no hope other than being surrounded by no hopers with nothing but pipe dreams.

maybe there are two types of ts, those in denial about their inherent masculine body, and those that are aware of their situation and i think perhaps a goal is to try and become aware of our flaws, and help each other in correcting them, instead of promoting our subjective unrealistic dreams.

what about the type that dont have masculine body language?
so all ts have masculine bodies? im sorry, thats incorect... there are MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies...
i actually wish i didnt have such a female body at times ive recently had to get new bdu pants because my hips made them too tight! so PLEASE tell me thats denial

R

Quote from: Rachael on December 07, 2007, 06:38:04 AM
what about the type that dont have masculine body language?
so all ts have masculine bodies? im sorry, thats incorect... there are MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies...
i actually wish i didnt have such a female body at times ive recently had to get new bdu pants because my hips made them too tight! so PLEASE tell me thats denial

R

yep. being a ts woman doesn't automatically equal a masculine body and body language. and a LOT (probably 80%) of body language depends on the way the body's set up. that's the main difference between the way men and women move. a woman built like a man (gg or not) will move, walk, sit, etc like a man. A man (gm or not) built like a woman (especially if he's hippy) will have to work to not move, walk, sit, like a woman.
I know there's so many guides out for ts women to learn to move like women and ts men to learn to move like men, but there's really no magic formula. there's only so much one can do. a body will move how its set up. and a lot of it depends on weight distribution. if you're hippy, your body's going to move like a woman regardless if you're a cisgender straight male.

rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.

take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.

Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies

there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.

there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.

you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me  like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?

once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.

nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.

its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.

like i said, take it, or leave it.

Quote from: Berliegh on December 07, 2007, 03:41:09 AM
I'm not 'tag teaming' with anyone but on occasions I have agreed with Melissa's posts as they are usually the voice of experience and reason..

I don't necessarily agree with every post, however I greatly admire Melissa's willingness to always say it as she sees it, like it or not. She'll let you know if the Emperor is wearing no clothes 

y2g

Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 07:16:29 AM
rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.

take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.

Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies

there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.

there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.

you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me  like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?

once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.

nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.

its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.

like i said, take it, or leave it.

Obviously you haven't seen many women. There's a problem in the TS community where so many TS think that looking like a woman equals looking like a supermodel.
Tip for all who think this way - 99% of genetic women don't look like those airbrushed in your Playboys or on your tv with personal stylists, makeup artists, and clever lighting.
It's really a very male view of how women should look.

Rachael's the spitting image of a girl I used to work with. She looks very soft and feminine to me.
I think I'll try putting a picture of a natal woman up here and see how long it takes for someone to point out that she looks like an androgynous male.