To preface my story from today:

I am full time as of September. When I got hired at my current company (Freedom Wireless), I was interviewed and hired as Kelli (with the exception of all the paperwork being in my legal name). I absolutely love the company I work for. My regional, and district managers have been and continue to be amazing and supportive. There has not been a single incident from my company, or our parent company (Verizon Wireless). I work in a mall as an Indirect Wireless Sales Agent. I sell Verizon Wireless products.

All that said... While I'm at work, when I have to use the restroom I have always used the female restroom. I have not had SRS. Every single time I've used the bathroom, I've gone in, did my business sitting down, washed my hands and left... Just like any other woman would. I pass fairly well (see my avatar?). As is the case with all of us, sometimes we get read. That's just a part of being us, I suppose.

Anyhow, I got a call from my regional manager (Doug) today. He told me what a wonderful job I was doing and yadda yadda yadda. He says "I have to talk to you about something really touchy... Our vice president got a call from Mall Management complaining that you use the womens restroom. Personally I think they're out of their mind and it shouldn't be an issue. I don't have a single problem with you at all, but they called the VP, so I have to address it."

I was shocked, but fairly calm. I agreed to use the "Family Restroom." No biggie. We finish up the phone call with some other work-related stuff. About 5 minutes after we hung up, everything that was just said hit me. It really really really pissed me off.

Long story shortened... I ended up sending our VP the following e-mail:

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelli
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 4:36 PM
To: **************VP*************
Subject: Mall Management Call


Bob,

Let me begin by saying that in the short time I've been employed by Freedom Wireless, everyone has been amazing.Freedom has been a great company to work for and everyone from Management to our Account Reps at VZW corporate to our agents have been wonderful and accepting. I've not had a single issue with anyone.

No matter where I would work, I'm sensative to the fact that not everyone is accepting and open minded when it comes to transgendered people. That's just society. That's just life. I deal with that.

I was thrilled when I was hired. The fact that I'm a male to female transexual wasn't the slightest issue. It was a huge relief that it wasn't an issue.

It has not been an issue what-so-ever, until recently apparently.

I just recieved a call from Doug about an issue that Harrisburg Mall Management called you about. I would like to know more about what happened and what was said. I'm not out to get anyone, scream at anyone, or anything like that. I would just like to know what transpired.

I believe that business and personal issues should always be kept from crossing paths, but in this case, they have. First, I don't want there to be any issues for Freedom Wireless. Secondly, I don't want any issues like this for myself.

Please call me so we can discuss this further. 717-***-****

Respectfully,

Kelli Matthews



About 10 minutes after I sent the e-mail, our VP returns my call. He tells me that a few female customers and a few female workers of the mall complained to mall management. The conversation lasted about 20 minutes.

Afterwards, I receive the following e-mail which basically restates everything that was said over the phone.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob *********
To: Kelli
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: Mall Management Call


Kelli,

First of all, thank you for your message.  I appreciate your attitude and understanding.  I'm also glad to hear that you've had such a great experience so far with our organization!  Frankly, I wish I had more feedback like this!  I can tell you that I've heard nothing but good things from both Wendy and Doug about your performance, and I'm looking forward to meeting you myself!

Even though we just finished a phone conversation, I wanted to send this message because I didn't feel like we had a chance to quite finish our conversation since you had customers at the store.  I know this is nothing short of awkward for you, so I'll be a gentle as I can.  Please know that I made it VERY clear to the mall I will NOT tolerate any kind of singling out or harassment of an employee, and that Freedom Wireless will stand behind you 100%!  I was assured that the only reason for the phone call was their (the mall's) requirement to respond to concerns expressed by female mall employees and customers regarding your use of the ladies restroom.

I do want you to know that if you have completed your gender change, I/we support you 100% in your right to use the ladies restroom, and I have been clear to that point with the mall.  If you have not yet completed your gender change, if you feel comfortable in letting us know that you have done so, we will contact them mall and instruct them to afford you the same courtesies as ANY female employee or customer, which will include the use of the ladies restroom.

In the meantime, we would appreciate it if you would do us the favor of just using the "family restroom" for the time being, as it is a gender-neutral facility, and has a looking door for complete privacy.  The mall is completely comfortable with this and assures us that this is satisfactory to them, and expects no further issues or concerns in this regard. 

Kelli, please keep us informed of any behaviors or issues if you see or hear anything you feel is in some way "inappropriate" on the part of other mall employees or members of the mall's staff.  We will take immediate action.

Once again, thank you for your understanding and cooperation!  And thank you for the the great job you are doing for us at the Harrisburg Mall!

Best regards,

*** *********
Vice President




Sooo.... I love my company. That's not the issue. I'm completely happy with who I work for.

What hurts is that I feel like a freak. I feel like a second rate woman. I feel so less than. I feel very broken and ashamed of what is between my legs. I've never had a true hatred for my "mistaken parts" until now. I dispise the fact that people are "sticking their noses" (figuratively) in between my legs where they CLEARLY don't belong.

It's a very depressing feeling to have that happen. Being full time has been fairly easy for me. I go through the nervous feelings sometimes, but generally, going full time has changed my entire existence in so many good ways. My life is good.... But today made me feel completely alien and that I didn't belong anywhere.

It's a terrible feeling that I wouldn't wish on ANYONE.

As with anything... take the good with the bad from that story.

Transition isn't all bad happenings... remember that.

Hi Kelli,

I read your post and I understand how you must feel, you have this wonderful job and experiences, not hurting anyone, going about your business, yet there are people in this world who don't mind their own.  These are the small number that will always make it difficult for us.  They are faceless, nameless jerks who spend their time hurting others.  They are ignorant and will always remain so unfortunately.
I hope all goes well and your spirits remain high, but I know it is hard to overcome a kick in the guts like that, it is very, very hard.


buttercup   

hi kelli,

first let me start out by saying i am excited for you as you got your job as your proper gender and no one seemed to question it for legal ramifications. you have no idea how much i envy you right now. i am not out at my workplace but i don't feel that i would really have a problem there, it's more at home that i would have a problem. i know it sux that somebody had to complain and make you feel like a second rate woman,trust me you are not. it takes a lot of courage every day just to do your job. i hope everything turns out the way it should for you. you give me the courage to continue my search for a job where i can just be seen for the woman i feel i am. though at work most customers consider female most of the time anyway....stay strong

I went full time at work on September 4th.  Before that date my company put in a single stall restroom.  I wrote about it here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,17868.0.html

I was promised a review of the policy after two months.  This hasn't happened and I hesitate to bring it up for a number of reasons.  First of all, I do not want to risk providing my employer an opportunity to once again show how cosmetic and superficial their so called "Fairness Policy" is.  I have too many other emotional challenges to surmount than to voluntarily apply for another one.

The second reason is because I feel almost certain that my request will be overruled.  When I see the intolerance within my own community about "men" in a "women's room" I lose hope that the issue will be settled on the side of fairness any time soon in the public sphere.  I read that the petition drive to overturn California's recently signed anti-discrimination bill, SB777, is garnering a great deal of support.  I believe the main reason for this is because of the religious radical right's emphasis on women and children's "safety" in public restrooms.

My advice, Kelli, would be to make the concession and use the family room that is available to you but to make it known to all involved that if it is in use and you have to go, that the ladies room will have to be your only other choice.  Waiting would keep you from your job and the Men's cannot be an option.  Perhaps you can point out to your management, along with the mall management, that your behavior, and not what might be between your legs, ought to be the basis of their judgment.  If you have been on HRT for any amount of time you might also point out its effect on male libido and function.  The complainants most likely are unaware of that.

Good luck with this, Kelli, and good luck with the rest of your transition.  I can relate to your issue and hope you can resolve it within yourself as well as with all the others involved.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Legally, you might be stuck, as you're still legally male (ouch, I know, sorry). I worry about encountering this problem too, but figure it's a temporary problem until SRS, and just something to put up with in the meantime.

I wonder if showing them a letter from your therapist might help though? My "Carry Letter" states that I'm in the process of transitioning, intend to have SRS, and should be "afforded all the rights and privileges of a female." It doesn't carry any legal weight I guess, but still... it's something "official" they might be able to fall back on?

The management at my company feared problems when I came out, so they quickly finished renovating a third bathroom, made it the new Women's Room, and changed the original single-use Women's Room to Unisex for me. I felt rather humiliated, but I understood their concerns. But as things turned out, all the women (and no men) still use the so-called Unisex room with me anyway, lol, so it was a non-issue. But who knows what would happen if customers were involved.

~Kate~

Awwww, Kelli!  I feel so bad for you.  Things like that can really knock you for a loop.  You know who and what you are, and it sounds as if your company does, too.  I have to agree that even though this is a bit on the humiliating side, making this concession might be the only choice you have, other than holding it all day. 

I don't really know what your future plans are, but I know a lot of us would love to work for a company as understanding as this.  It just appears that they are stuck in a difficult place not of their own making.  As far as not belonging, read the letter again.  They are very insistent that you belong there.  Don't miss that.

Wishing you lots of hugs

Kristi

Thank you all so much for your replies.

I'm getting ready to head in to work in a little bit... and I'm really having to force myself to go.

Normally, being in public is never an issue for me. But today... I want to stay in bed and hide.

No one ever said that doing something worthwhile was easy... Grrrrr.

I don't know what state you are from, but I do know that I checked my state's laws out and it does not say that male can't use the womens restroom or the other way around. There were no laws against me using the womens room before my surgery. I know some states do have specific laws against this sort of occurance. Oregon does not.
Sheila

Standard legal language is 'reasonable accommodation.'  Reasonable accommodation includes adjustments to assure that a qualified individual with a disability has rights and privileges in employment equal to those of employees without disabilities.  USDOJ (Department of Justice)

Which means, if there is another facility you can use, your not going to win the fight.

a).  So far, but it can be included at a later date, say after the next election.

b).  Regardless of the inclusion/non-inclusion of GID in the ADA, lawyers prefer language that has been adjudicated.  There are few phrases that have been adjudicated the way "Reasonable Accommodation" has been over the past 17 years.  So I'm pretty sure that is exactly the language they would choose.

c).  Any suit would really have to be against the mall, not the employer - who has acted well.  I'm dead certain the mall has one hell of an ironclad contract with its lease-holders.  Standard language in that contract would include the great weasel words "community standard" or "prevailing community standards" which would be the Mall's out.  (google: victoria's + secret + display + mall, and find out)

Hmmm...I'm sorry you are going through this, Kelli.  I would look at my options if I were you.  There are several states as well as cities and counties that have protection laws for transgender people.  Here is a helpful link with the details:

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/index.htm

Good luck!

tink

why do they even care?....whatever you do is your business only!

I think the reason was well stated with the line:
concerns expressed by female mall employees and customers regarding your use of the ladies restroom  Which means: in plain English, someone made a formal complaint.  The management is forced to act on formal complaints or face legal action.

Brought to mall management, the management had to bring it to the store, and the store to her.  Its not silly when it can be actionable.  And any action can be the basis for a lawsuit.  And if you don't think this is coming under the heading of "obscenity" in a lot of local courts, your kidding yourself.

The rights of a landlord (those who OWN the property) are in an 'ownership society" huge.  And beyond that, the rights of a property holder, to write contracts are almost unlimited.  And I've seen such clauses in leases. My GF manages a mall store, and I've seen hers (and oh how sexy is to to cuddle up to her and say "hey baby, can I see your lease?" - romantic devil eh?)  Aside from that, I've done extensive - graduate level in urban planning - research on malls, and in the process of that have seen the contracts other major mall management companies use.  That weasel language covers a lot of bases, which is why its weasel city in the first place.  What it really means, is that the mall owners can decide what is appropriate , and should you decide to not follow their 'suggestions' you will find yourself without a store - but still paying rent to the end of the contract.

As for 'reasonable accommodation" that often winds up being in the jurisdiction where the corporation is HQ.  For Version it used to be Jersey but now I think it's D.C.  So that is were a suit would be brought against the company.  The company can claim that the person was provided other means, hence, it has no responsibility.

In your third year of law school you will find out that anyone can sue anyone at any time over just about anything.  And those with the best lawyers, get the best out of court settlements.

Quote from: Kelli on December 06, 2007, 10:55:53 AM
Thank you all so much for your replies.

I'm getting ready to head in to work in a little bit... and I'm really having to force myself to go.

Normally, being in public is never an issue for me. But today... I want to stay in bed and hide.

No one ever said that doing something worthwhile was easy... Grrrrr.

Hi, Kelli,

I strongly recommend that you talk with a labor relations lawyer, preferably one that deals with gender matters.  I have read that certain cities and counties in Pennsylvania have enacted some laws and regulations to protect people on the basis of gender presentation.

You keep on keepin' on girl.

Wing Walker


Posted on: December 11, 2007, 09:12:32 PM

---

Quote from: Kate on December 06, 2007, 08:48:40 AM
Legally, you might be stuck, as you're still legally male (ouch, I know, sorry). I worry about encountering this problem too, but figure it's a temporary problem until SRS, and just something to put up with in the meantime.

I wonder if showing them a letter from your therapist might help though? My "Carry Letter" states that I'm in the process of transitioning, intend to have SRS, and should be "afforded all the rights and privileges of a female." It doesn't carry any legal weight I guess, but still... it's something "official" they might be able to fall back on?

The management at my company feared problems when I came out, so they quickly finished renovating a third bathroom, made it the new Women's Room, and changed the original single-use Women's Room to Unisex for me. I felt rather humiliated, but I understood their concerns. But as things turned out, all the women (and no men) still use the so-called Unisex room with me anyway, lol, so it was a non-issue. But who knows what would happen if customers were involved.

~Kate~

Dang, Kate, thanks for reminding me about the "Carry Letter."  I never needed to use it but I still have mine.  I drafted it, had my therapists, psychiatrist, and HRT doctor sign it, all in colored ink.  Then I got it it copied in color, reduced size, laminated, and always had one with me.  Now that all of my documents, except my U.S. passport, show the "F" gender marker.

It doesn't do magic but there was a time when I never left home without it.  Glad you mentioned it.

Wing Walker