QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.

lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. 

you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.

you can stick your xx chromosones.

you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.

and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.

you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.

ive had enough of this.

i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.

Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

Nero, of course I am not saying that.  I do know what it is to have to live without HRT.  Yet, I still think that anyone who tries hard enough, given enough time and work, can pass.  That does not mean being a supermodel.  It just means passing.  There is quite a difference.  Of course some have a better head start than others.  I don't think the argument of body vs. psyche is of much significance.  We are whole beings and the two very much have a synergistic effect.  They affect each other greatly.

Love and respect,
Kristi

Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM

QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.

lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. 

you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.

you can stick your xx chromosones.

you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.

and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.

you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.

ive had enough of this.

i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.

Allllllrighty then! When have I ever implied I was superior to anyone?

I can't tell the difference between a man and a woman? Well, who made you the arbiter of the female visage?

I've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.

Posted on: December 07, 2007, 10:05:47 AM

---

Quote from: Kristi on December 07, 2007, 08:15:49 AM

Quote from: Nero on December 06, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Are you saying it's not physical? Because I think most of it is. One can do everything in their power and still not pass - especially if unable to have HRt.
IMO, those who pass without HRT have good genes. And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

Nero, of course I am not saying that.  I do know what it is to have to live without HRT.  Yet, I still think that anyone who tries hard enough, given enough time and work, can pass.  That does not mean being a supermodel.  It just means passing.  There is quite a difference.  Of course some have a better head start than others.  I don't think the argument of body vs. psyche is of much significance.  We are whole beings and the two very much have a synergistic effect.  They affect each other greatly.

Love and respect,
Kristi

Love and respect back, hon.

But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behaviour.

QuoteI've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.

I have said this many times before but how one genders another person is only relative to the person doing the gendering. You see xxxxxxxx as female, others will see xxxxxxxx as male or androgynous. It is what one thinks of herself that matters. It is obvious to me that many of the MtF's here who are so focused on how others gender them (also known by the totally incorrect term passing) suffer from low self-esteem. The best way to get out of that trip is to stop worrying about self and focus on others, especially helping others. The way to build up self-esteem is by doing esteemable acts.

Focusing on oneself and attachment to being obsessed about how others judge you only leads to more suffering.

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 07, 2007, 09:20:07 AM

QuoteI've seen a lot of pics of Rachael from every angle, and she looks female. No different from millions of women I've seen. Maybe you should actually take a look at a person before 'breaking it' to them they look like an androgynous boy.

I have said this many times before but how one genders another person is only relative to the person doing the gendering. You see xxxxxxxx as female, others will see xxxxxxxx as male or androgynous. It is what one thinks of herself that matters. It is obvious to me that many of the MtF's here who are so focused on how others gender them (also known by the totally incorrect term passing) suffer from low self-esteem. The best way to get out of that trip is to stop worrying about self and focus on others, especially helping others. The way to build up self-esteem is by doing esteemable acts.

Focusing on oneself and attachment to being obsessed about how others judge you only leads to more suffering.

I agree about the self esteem issue.
There are male and female appearance norms though. There's also a big difference in how male or female one looks to a person if they know beforehand one's TS. Like I said, I bet I could put up a pic of a natal girl on here, and some would be quick to say she doesn't pass or point out masculine 'flaws' in her appearance.

Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM

ive had enough of this.

i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.

Good. You sound like you just want to argue anyway. As far as this debate goes, some people MAY pass all of the time, some may pass some of the time and some may not pass at all. I pass probably about 50% of the time judging by the way that people treat me and that is soley what I go on. I am not going to be delusional and think that I pass all of the time because that would be absurd and possibly very dangerous. I am not going to blab endlessly about my body, the only thing that I will say about it is that it is human.    I do not base my life or my "passing abilty" in comparison with other MtF TS's, that would be stupid. I am me, myself, that is it. Everyone is unique no matter who they are whether they happen to be a genetic male, female, MtF, FtM, TS........whatever. I would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

Quote from: Rachael on December 05, 2007, 11:28:52 AM

Quote from: fruity on December 05, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
seeing as 90% of trans people don't remotely pass, i'd say yes, it is possible.

does them being the majority mean they can live as thier target gender?
provide some evidence that this 90% of transpeople are living as thier target gender...
R

I did it for several years.

Quote from: Tink on December 06, 2007, 07:06:03 PM
Hmmm...I am not sure whether I should go into details about why she is not perceived as a woman.  But let me say something:  when you see a tomboyish woman, why do you think people clock her as female?  IMO, it is her features (facial, body shape, voice, mannerisms, etc) that give her away, wouldn't you think?  I think the same mechanism is used by people when some of us are read.  Perceiving biological sex in a person is an automatic response.  People only go by what they see on the outside and the cues they get when they meet us are sufficient for that perception.

Right, but my point was that maybe passing isn't required for acceptance, for living a reasonably fulfilling life. The whole thread is getting rerailed into a passing thing again, where it seems people EQUATE the terms passing and acceptance and can't seem to separate the two... which is telling on it's own.

But look, all I know is that I CAN'T pass with everyone. And I've "come out" to a billion people out of necessity (when explaining why my name has changed, doctors, etc.). And no one... NO ONE.. has ever treated me with anything but respect and kindness. Do they treat me exactly as they would a GG? God if I know, but I'm not trying to mimick an IDEA anyway, I'm not trying to "become a woman" or fake being some idealistic stereotype. I'm just trying to get through my darn day, without causing too much of a fuss.

Sure, it'd be easier if I passed for a GG 100% of the time. And yes, it's a *direction* I pursue... but moreso as most women would want to be prettier, and not as some "goal" needed to achieve and maintain my so-called "womanhood" at last. Transition to me is about GETTING OVER my gender obsession, not enhancing it. Transition to me isn't about moving from one gender prison to another, it's about getting rid of this stupid obsession which has plagued me my entire life. The transitioned TS who HAS to keep passing 100% in order to be supposedly happy is no better off than than the pre-transition soul trapped as their birth sex. Both are still fragile, obsessed with TSism, and always waiting in anxiety for the proverbial shoe to drop.

Consider how many perfectly passable TSs seem miserable, despite what they say. They pass, they're seen as women, and yet it seems they don't accept themselves. They're constantly trying to become and be accepted as "real women," as an idea, and not just as a real person. For some people, I fear seeking acceptance through passing is just an attempt to avoid facing their own self-doubts by hiding behind yet another mask.

So I DO think it's possible to live as YOURSELF at least without passing. I KNOW it's possible. Maybe not for everyone, but for some at least, for those who are focused more on being real, being themselves, rather than "being a woman."

~Kate~

Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on December 07, 2007, 09:39:25 AMI would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

The same way you can by getting to know a person any other way. It's not the 'typing style' or wording or anything but the person behind the type coming through. It's certainly not foolproof, but sometimes it's clear when you're replying to a female.

Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 07:16:29 AM
rachel, i dont know you but you know you remind me somewhat of myself at your age. Im going to tell you the things nobody ever told me when i was your age. I wasted so much time because i had nobody to help me.

take it or leave it. In the long term i think this will help you and you might hate me for it in the short term.

Quoteare MANY ts girls and women who have entirely female bodies

there is not one single transexual woman in the world that has an entirely female body. Only genetic women, or f2m transexuals have those. Stop dreaming.

there are genetic male bodies, that are smaller and more rounded. I always thought just like you, that i had a female body. Now i realise i have a female body, compared to that of a normal male. But compared to genetic females, its pretty masculine really. I hate that, but its better to know the truth, that way you can begin to work to make it better.

you don't look like a woman. neither did i when i was your age. You look to me  like an androgenous male teenager who wears make up, much like i did at your age. Maybe if i saw you in real life my opinion would change, but i doubt it. Put yourself next to a genetic woman, and really think about it. Do you REALLY look like a woman?

once you know who you are you can begin to work to make things better.

nobody ever told me this, and i wasted years in dreamland that i was somehow the 0,1% who was born lucky to look like a woman, and yet be a genetic man.

its just a dream. face reality, and that way you can start to make it better.

like i said, take it, or leave it.

you know, im so glad you came and explained all this to me, i was running around like a headless ->-bleeped-<- thinking i was some gorgeous babe... heck, i was so delusional i seem to fool EVERYONE around me in the world...
i wont resort to personal attacks, that takes me down yo your level. youve seen one photo of me looking gothic and androgynous, so what? i look female in that, nearly anyone else will say that...

too much makeup? i only has eyeliner on :S

im full time, and im stealth on my degree course, and in my part time job... if you met me in real life, id think youd have a job 'clocking' me, as ive met trans activists whove had to ask if i was m2f or f2m AFTER having to TELL them im trans too...
whats an entirely female body? really? what is a female body? sure, no vagina, and even post op, its not real is it? but whats a female body? ive seen women with more male shape than i,
im 5'9, bit tall for a girl, but still normal, size 8 uk shoes, average for a girl my hight... i wear a size bellow the uk average for women...
so dont come in here telling me you know everything, you blatently dont, and have produced next to no evidence for your statements, and by the way, im not genetically male
R

Quote from: Kate on December 07, 2007, 10:13:44 AM
The whole thread is getting rerailed into a passing thing again,

Yep. Should've realized merely having the word 'passing' in a title would bring the ruder and cruder self proclaimed 'arbiters of the female form' crawling out of the woodwork.

only one thing crawling around this topic
R

Quote from: fruity on December 07, 2007, 08:11:21 AM

QuoteIt's really a very male view of how women should look.

lol, its a typical chauvenist responce to tell a transexual that they are mimicking a
man. Always watch out for the closet genetic female supremacist.. 

you sound like my mum. she thinks she is superior to me too because she has xx chromosones.

you can stick your xx chromosones.

you know, having lived as a man, its normally pretty easy for me to mimmick them, im a good actress.. and I like men, they tend to say nice things to me. Actually women do too, but anyway, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman.

and also, to you, or any other genetic woman who thinks they know more about being a woman than we do.

you dont make up the rules for how ts women live because you have xx chromosones. sorry to inform you of that.

ive had enough of this.

i'll leave and let you all live in your phoney reality together. I've got better things to do with my time.

still trying to make sense of this tirade

Also, if you'd read my post without your panties in a wad over seeing the word 'male', you'd know that I was referring to the media's portrayal of women and not accusing anyone of the capital offense of acting male. And there really is a problem in the trans community of embracing some idillyc view of women.

no shizzle.... although lets be fair, the trans community isnt the best place to see normal female or male behaviour...
i think my peers mention, or think about gender, once every few months- year.... here its thrice daily.... how one SHOULD behave, how one MUST behave.... when in truth, natal females act in a veriety of ways.... masculine in some, male? in none.
R

Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 10:22:33 AM

Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on December 07, 2007, 09:39:25 AMI would like to know one thing, though: where do some people get this idea that they can judge someones gender identity from the way that they type on a computer?? Handwriting? Yeah, I could see that, but typing text on a screen? No way. I am not saying that as an invitation to argue by the way, so please no one see it as such. It is simply my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

The same way you can by getting to know a person any other way. It's not the 'typing style' or wording or anything but the person behind the type coming through. It's certainly not foolproof, but sometimes it's clear when you're replying to a female.

Women communicate differently than men. I can spot men trying to post as women on womyn only forums in a New York minute, a lot of it is intuition in my case. Being in woman only support groups (NOT TS groups BTW) and mixed support groups, it is striking at how different men and women communicate. Women are generally more polite and will concede other's points rather than insist on being right. all the time  I know I fall into this and I consider it a male trait that I haven't fully shed.

Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 11:52:43 AM

still trying to make sense of this tirade

Also, if you'd read my post without your panties in a wad over seeing the word 'male', you'd know that I was referring to the media's portrayal of women and not accusing anyone of the capital offense of acting male. And there really is a problem in the trans community of embracing some idillyc view of women.

Don't bother Nero.

The person didn't have the courage to debate the issue in a civilized manner and resorted to insults - not very effective as I deleted them

Steph

good on you steph, they were getting on my nerves....
Mel: why should you HAVE to shed a male trait? dont women ahve so called 'male' traits too?
and come on.... internet is a test of someones character? i didnt realise that internet was such serious business...
R

Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 09:11:30 AM
Love and respect back, hon.
But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behavior.

Yes, Nero, that is precisely the point.  Think about it:  When the two are out of sync, is it only a physical thing?  No.  Is it only a mental thing?  No, it's both.  Ever hear of someone getting depressed after an operation or having a baby?  Ever known someone severely depressed who began to have physical symptoms?   Ever measured someone's blood pressure after hearing some  shocking news?  Ever seen a sight that caused an adrenaline rush in you?  On quite a number of levels, mind and body must be in sync to have peace of mind and physical health.  We can pretend otherwise, but the stress caused by a mismatch will eventually have manifestations, either physical, mental, or both.  I think this is a part of the puzzle of why some pass more easily than others. 

The human being is an amazing thing, the only member of the animal kingdom who can even fathom the conception of deception.  Sometimes, we do indeed have to act contrary to our physical reality.  Each of us has different levels of adaptability to the stress this causes.  (I personally believe that this helps explain why some must transition full speed ahead, while others can put it off longer.)  Some enjoy it immensely, some are terrified by it, and most are somewhere in between.  But it is a process that affects our entire being, not just our bodies.

What does this have to do with the subject at hand?  Put simply, to be a member of society of whatever gender, we must interact with others as a member of that gender.  I'm not saying this is right, only that it is the reality we face.  Interaction is just that:  a give and take, an exchange of energy; in ways large or small it is a sharing of part of our lives, it is being in community.  That is what living as our target gender is all about if we wish to be seen as one of the two binary genders.  Without a wholesale change in society, one side of the exchange is missing unless the person "passes."  And that includes not only physical change, but also lifestyle coaching.  Yet I still believe that if someone wants to badly enough s/he can accomplish it.

So I believe that if we fail to pass we do not experience life as the other gender.  And the consequences are more far-reaching than many of us realize.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on December 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: Nero on December 07, 2007, 09:11:30 AM
Love and respect back, hon.
But I disagree. The whole issue of being trans in the first place is that our bodies do not match our behavior.

Yes, Nero, that is precisely the point.  Think about it:  When the two are out of sync, is it only a physical thing?  No.  Is it only a mental thing?  No, it's both.  Ever hear of someone getting depressed after an operation or having a baby?  Ever known someone severely depressed who began to have physical symptoms?   Ever measured someone's blood pressure after hearing some  shocking news?  Ever seen a sight that caused an adrenaline rush in you?  On quite a number of levels, mind and body must be in sync to have peace of mind and physical health.  We can pretend otherwise, but the stress caused by a mismatch will eventually have manifestations, either physical, mental, or both.  I think this is a part of the puzzle of why some pass more easily than others. 

The human being is an amazing thing, the only member of the animal kingdom who can even fathom the conception of deception.  Sometimes, we do indeed have to act contrary to our physical reality.  Each of us has different levels of adaptability to the stress this causes.  (I personally believe that this helps explain why some must transition full speed ahead, while others can put it off longer.)  Some enjoy it immensely, some are terrified by it, and most are somewhere in between.  But it is a process that affects our entire being, not just our bodies.

What does this have to do with the subject at hand?  Put simply, to be a member of society of whatever gender, we must interact with others as a member of that gender.  I'm not saying this is right, only that it is the reality we face.  Interaction is just that:  a give and take, an exchange of energy; in ways large or small it is a sharing of part of our lives, it is being in community.  That is what living as our target gender is all about if we wish to be seen as one of the two binary genders.  Without a wholesale change in society, one side of the exchange is missing unless the person "passes."  And that includes not only physical change, but also lifestyle coaching.  Yet I still believe that if someone wants to badly enough s/he can accomplish it.

So I believe that if we fail to pass we do not experience life as the other gender.  And the consequences are more far-reaching than many of us realize.

Kristi

Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.

i think what Kristi said is quite true.... a lot here are confusing the life of a transexual woman, with living as the target sex... both are possible. Most simply dont notice the difference.
R