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I could say that I know I'm transgender because its a very inclusive term and after being on HRT for so many years I know I'm not cis-normal. But the truth is that I don't care if I'm transgender or not. I long ago gave up trying to understand it, or fit it, and learned to just accept myself for whatever I am. For what its worth my psych thinks I'm transgender.

In only take me a paragraph or two around here to tell if a person is transgender because I have been around so many and heard so many stories. I can't tell exactly where you are on the spectrum because that is for you to decide but I know you aren't on the CIS end or very close to it.

QuoteI'm not at all confident that SRS would fix all my gender problems. It might, it might not, people experience dysphoria in many different ways. Mainly I've been trying not to transition and its been killing me. When I relent and move slowly I'm fine, more or less. So I view SRS as another step along the way that will probably help and likely won't do any harm, and its it keeps me sane another year or two then its a great success. I'm trying to leave the "hardest treatment of the package" until last, precisely because it is the hardest, and if I find I don't need to do it then I've made a lucky escape. And if I do need to do it I can only hope its later when my children are grown up and I won't screw over their lives as well as mine.

I have been through SRS and it isn't easy. It pretty well takes about 5 or 6 months out of your life because of the surgery and the after surgery care. In addition, I know the only thing it really changed in my life was it prevented me from returning to the male role. I knew that was all it would do before surgery and I also knew from RLE that my life as a woman was far better than it was as a male. I was ready to put the old life behind me forever and move into the new.

Really, I can argue till I am blue in the face that RLE and transitioning in to the new role is the only thing that is going to bring you happiness but unless you believe me, you will continue to think the other things will make you happy. I assume you have the money to make it happen so it will. I will provide one warning and that is after SRS, be prepared to do all the work that should have been done before SRS that you haven't already done because I doubt that you will dodge the bullet.

QuoteYou're losing your job is very specific to you. I can't lose my job, but that doesn't really change the arguments for and against.

You ask for specifics so I gave you what happened in my life. It is fair you ask these questions of me and if I am to be honest in my arguments, I should provide a truthful answer.

In general, if a person still has dysphoria after SRS, any failure in life can cause a person to question their decision for surgery. Also just the fact that the dysphoria remained after surgery when they thought SRS would be the treatment that would cure them. NO, I am not a god and I thought exactly like you did years ago except I did understand the year living requirement and I didn't fight it. As you thought, I thought hormones would make me feel better but they didn't. I also thought the solution to my problems would be SRS until I reached that point in RLS where I understood RLE had brought me the comfort I was after and I hadn't had SRS yet. If I knew another way, I would be the first one to tell you, I know what RLE is like when you are first stating out. I know how hard it is to open that door for the first time and walk out appearing in a different gender. I will share every trick I know to make it easy on you but I know of no better way of curing you that RLE.

Quote from: Jean24 on August 14, 2015, 01:44:07 AM
That's exactly my point. SRS has almost nothing to do with presenting in public and not passing in public, so how does it make sense to use presenting in public as a requirement? At what point would someone say "Now that I have been passing/looking drag as hell for a while, I know for a fact that a vagina/penis is for me?"

Not only that but if someone is rejected, they have no idea what being accepted is, which makes going out and figuring out "what life will be like" completely unrepresentative of how things will be as an individual who functions as their desired gender role.

And I remember a few cases where people were glad to have undergone transition and transitioned back. One in particular was on Susan's a few years back and I recall that he described himself as "MTFTM." He went through the whole spectrum and back again, and didn't have any regrets.

Maybe it was the times I was in because we had no clue what caused us to be the way we were. As few as we were, we knew people had SRS and regretted their decision. The path I took and I still believe in is that every option should be examined before SRS and anything you do before SRS should be reversible or shouldn't restrict your return to your birth gender. In my case, I didn't figure I would miss my Adam's Apple. I gave the surgeon who cleaned up my nose instructions that the nose should work on a male or a female face, I never had much of a beard so I wouldn't miss that. Speech therapy was simple to forget. The makeup and clothes could be discarded. In short, up to the day I had SRS I could have returned to the male role with no real damage to my life.

Now your MTFTM most likely could no longer have normal sex. Maybe it wasn't important to him/her/him but without more information, I really couldn't say.

I can only tell you from the long view that had SRS not been possible for some reason I would be far happier living as a woman with a penis than as a male with a vagina. 

Quote from: AnonyMs on August 14, 2015, 01:19:11 AM
I'd imagine you live in a country where its very easy to get 2 therapists to sign off, and if not there's plenty of others in the region that would. I have the impression that you're the kind of person who gets what they want.

Yes, I am used to getting my way. I think its the age and life experience gives me the confidence in my decisions, especially when there is so much research to support my choice. I'm alot older that I look haha...I also present myself as I look in my pic.

I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 02:41:36 AM
I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.

Funnily enough I think exactly the opposite. To me doing GRS is a no brainer compared to a year of RLE.

There's probably no way of truly understanding the opposite view, just as cis-people can't be expected to understand being transgender. All we can ask for is some acceptance.

Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 02:36:05 AM
Yes, I am used to getting my way. I think its the age and life experience gives me the confidence in my decisions, especially when there is so much research to support my choice. I'm alot older that I look haha...I also present myself as I look in my pic.

I'm much the same. It's just a pity it takes so long to get there.

I know there are so many conflicting points of view on RLE and I love telling antecdotes. A friend explained to me that they have lied to themselves and to people that matter their whole lives by acting like a male. She feels that she needed to be true to herself and others who matter in her life and for her SRS was an absolutely necessary to be who she is. Living a RLE with her male genitals would be continuing to lie to herself and also to those that matter. She considered that the male genitals was a major componant in defining who she is. She explained that for some TGs the SRS was not a necessity but for her she did not want to live a lie anymore. She had been on HRT for 3 years and  had her srs in Bangkok last April, and now lives there - she has zero regrets. She is at peace and radiates happiness.

Hi Dena, thanks for your reply yet again.

For all our words I don't think we're communicating, and I think I know why. You really don't understand the way I think, in much the same way as a cis-person doesn't understand a trans person. Kind of odd but I think its that.

I like understanding things, planning in detail, and completely controlling my environment to avoid risk. Its the way I live my life and its been very successful for me, although its not without some downsides (its safe to say I'm not normal). When it comes to gender its been an utter disaster. I have no idea where I'm going, and I learned long ago to stop expecting anything. I still research, plan and control, its part of me, but I've learned to accept whatever comes and to accept myself whoever I am. I'm just feeling my way step by step. In this I try to live in the moment.

For SRS I'd have hopes but no expectations. I'd not be overly disappointed if nothing changed, and it doesn't really matter to me. It would matter if it gave me dysphoria and I wanted my penis back, but I think the chance of that of close to zero. I'd still be mid-transition, and I'd still be trying not to transition, but that's a pragmatic choice. Worst case it would likely keep me busy for a year preparing, and that distraction from my gender issues makes it worthwhile even if nothing else happens. I really don't understand why SRS is such a big deal for everyone else.

Hormones did make me feel better for many years. It wasn't enough eventually and I had to increase from low dose to the full transitioning dose I've been on for a year now. Hopefully that will make be feel better for some more years, but I have no expectations either way.

Since I realized the extent of my problems years ago I've been rearranging my life to protect myself from all these problems I hear about from others (i.e. controlling my environment). I managed to create some problems for myself doing so because some of these problems don't exist where I am. Perhaps they don't exist because I unknowingly worked around them; I don't know. I'm now in a position where I can't lose my job, I have no money problems, and if I want to take 6 months off to recover from SRS I could easily.

Mod edit: ToS 15 Violation: Suggesting other members are not tolerant to others

Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 04:16:49 AM
I know there are so many conflicting points of view on RLE and I love telling antecdotes. A friend explained to me that they have lied to themselves and to people that matter their whole lives by acting like a male. She feels that she needed to be true to herself and others who matter in her life and for her SRS was an absolutely necessary to be who she is. Living a RLE with her male genitals would be continuing to lie to herself and also to those that matter. She considered that the male genitals was a major componant in defining who she is. She explained that for some TGs the SRS was not a necessity but for her she did not want to live a lie anymore. She had been on HRT for 3 years and  had her srs in Bangkok last April, and now lives there - she has zero regrets. She is at peace and radiates happiness.

Hi warlockmaker, I'm not sure I properly understand what you're saying.

This friend of yours had no RLE, presented male and got SRS? It sounds like she started presenting female after immediately after SRS?

Sounds good to me.

 

OK this topic is starting to become polarized, there are many views and feelings about current methodologies, these are set to protect many folks.
I am happy for this discussion to be factually based and with a healthy debate ongoing. There are many members who have different views and experiences, they are all valuable in helping those that are confused and or query there selves, please be considerate of those.

However if the forum's and their members integrities are brought into dispute again we will have to shut this topic down.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 02:41:36 AM
I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.

Nobody's saying you shouldn't do RLE if you think it will be helpful.

The topic is whether the medical community should force RLE on all transgender people who want surgery whether it would be helpful or not.

If RLE is such a "no-brainer" why is there zero scientific evidence that it does any good? Why does the scientific evidence we do have all seem to indicate it has no effect on outcomes.

If I want to take away someone's rights - for example say "people with brown hair should have to act like they're Swedish for a year before they're allowed to purchase blonde hair dye. People who already have blonde hair don't need to do this," - is it sufficient for me to label it a no-brainer, or should I have to come up with some proof that this restriction is necessary?

sorry, I guess I'll never understand the argument. No matter how long and hard I think about it I always come to the same conclusion . I really don't see the big deal if your going to live as a woman anyway I just don't understand , unless there is no intention of living as an outwardly perceived woman than I can see why you wouldn't want to be forced to wear the clothes of that gender.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 05:08:11 AM
sorry, I guess I'll never understand the argument. No matter how long and hard I think about it I always come to the same conclusion . I really don't see the big deal if your going to live as a woman anyway I just don't understand , unless there is no intention of living as an outwardly perceived woman than I can see why you wouldn't want to be forced to wear the clothes of that gender.

I don't think its really about understanding at the end of the day. Its more about believing in other people and having faith that they know what they are doing. Not necessarily me of course. Even if I'm completely nuts the others here sound pretty sensible.

I don't personally have a problem doing RLE prior to GRS. But that is because I expect to adopt a pretty vanilla, "standard" female presentation and role. I am also white, middle class, well educated, and have support from family and friends. Good for me. If I were of a less privileged role, or if I sought a non-binary or otherwise non-traditional end point to my transition, I would have very strong concerns about ever being approved unless I found just the right therapist. I would probably expect to have to fake a lot of "normal" feminine presentation to avoid problems.

One of the biggest problems with RLE is that it means someone else has to decide whether you are "trans enough" in your presentation to count as RLE. There is a long history of discrimination in this process. If it were just a matter of "present in your desired role," then fine, that should be relatively non-controversial.

But it is not, and this is not a minor issue, or something that can just be hand-waved away. There are many things that would work well in an ideal world, but which don't pan out in reality. Enforced RLE is one of these, IMO.

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 14, 2015, 04:44:30 AM
Nobody's saying you shouldn't do RLE if you think it will be helpful.

The topic is whether the medical community should force RLE on all transgender people who want surgery whether it would be helpful or not.

If RLE is such a "no-brainer" why is there zero scientific evidence that it does any good? Why does the scientific evidence we do have all seem to indicate it has no effect on outcomes.

If I want to take away someone's rights - for example say "people with brown hair should have to act like they're Swedish for a year before they're allowed to purchase blonde hair dye. People who already have blonde hair don't need to do this," - is it sufficient for me to label it a no-brainer, or should I have to come up with some proof that this restriction is necessary?

Exactly.  For someone like myself who prefers androgynous clothing, doesn't use makeup and has non traditional interests such as metal working I would find getting past some gatekeepers in this country (NZ) to be approved for GRS just about impossible.  I have lived full time for years on my own terms and I know bone deep that I'm not the gender I was assigned at birth so GRS should be a forgone conclusion should I want it.

As a former truck mechanic I was privileged to work alongside some highly skilled guys who were absolute inspired technicians when it came to machinery.  I also worked alongside some guys who didn't have a clue and were total 'butchers' when it came to working on heavy vehicles.  I don't see the medical profession as being any different from the trade of being a truck mechanic in terms of distribution of skills. 
If during transition we have the misfortune to strike medical professionals who are barely worth the paper in the framed diplomas hanging on their office walls it can cause us considerable misery; - and in both my situation and my daughter's situation we've certainly had to suffer more than a few of those.  On the other hand we have both been able to once in a while find medical professionals who were worth their salt and have been a big help to us.

As a DES child and an intersex person I don't have a great deal of incentive to trust the medical profession's ability to judge whether I'm expressing my true inner gender 'correctly' or not so that's why I say RLE is a crock.

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For all our words I don't think we're communicating, and I think I know why. You really don't understand the way I think, in much the same way as a cis-person doesn't understand a trans person. Kind of odd but I think its that.

I understand exactly where you are coming from but I lacked the money, treatments alternatives and I was too honest to attempt what you are proposing. Had those three issues not been a problem, would have found myself attempting exactly what you are proposing. It was the lack of money and not any moral standard that gave me two years of RLE and I would have said yes to surgery at the required on year if I could have afforded it. Don't think I don't understand where you are coming from because I understand far to well.  I would have had my own little set of reasons why the rules didn't apply to me and I would have been sure they were right. I may have been weaker than you because things like HRT didn't buy me much time before I wanted more change in my life.

My views are the result of hindsight and not foresight and it bothers me that people are delaying the treatment they need so badly  because of fear of living the life they really seek. It is strange how we want to be a woman but we fear living the life of one. I still find it hard to understand the fear that I had but the fear no longer exist within me and it has been replace with being totally comfortable in my new life.

Quote from: Dena on August 14, 2015, 02:20:35 AM
The path I took and I still believe in is that every option should be examined before SRS and anything you do before SRS should be reversible or shouldn't restrict your return to your birth gender. In my case, I didn't figure I would miss my Adam's Apple. I gave the surgeon who cleaned up my nose instructions that the nose should work on a male or a female face, I never had much of a beard so I wouldn't miss that. Speech therapy was simple to forget. The makeup and clothes could be discarded. In short, up to the day I had SRS I could have returned to the male role with no real damage to my life.

SRS would not prevent returning to or continuing a male gender role, any more than being AFAB prevents being an FTM male. Since beginning a semi-private phase of my transition (i.e., mostly out at home and occasionally in public, HRT), I have largely been continuing my male gender role. I have not been using my birth genitals in any way that would be affected by SRS...

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Now your MTFTM most likely could no longer have normal sex. Maybe it wasn't important to him/her/him but without more information, I really couldn't say.

I can only tell you from the long view that had SRS not been possible for some reason I would be far happier living as a woman with a penis than as a male with a vagina.

And that's just the thing, it's not for you or for a therapist or for any other care provider to say what is important to a trans person. While you might be happier as a woman with a penis, I would very strongly prefer to be a man without one, if it came to that. I've largely found my male gender existence to be tolerable, but have been very unhappy about my parts.

RLE enforces specific ideas about what it means to be trans, and undermines the person's right to self-determination. There is no way to prevent people from making wrong decisions, period. If it were known that RLE efficiently helped to prevent some of these, it might be a good idea, but we don't know that. Worse, we don't know how many people who do need SRS are prevented from getting it because of either the fear of RLE or discrimination / heterosexism by care providers. That is a huge problem, and "it worked for me" doesn't fix it.

Dena, I feel we are getting closer, but there's still a gap.

I have my reasons for not transitioning socially any further. I think they are good reasons, and I'm prepared to sacrifice my happiness for my family. I'm fully aware I may be mistaken and its just fear speaking, but I think its my decision and responsibility to choose how I live my life.

I'm not prepared to suffer and end up harming my family anyway, so I'll socially transition if things get bad again and I run out of any other options. It's possible I'll do this and everything will turn out just fine and then I'll regret not doing it all earlier. So be it.

If it wasn't for 2 reasons I'd have done it years ago. I'm pretty sure fear of social transition is not one of the reasons. Fear of these 2 reasons is though. I do fear social transition, but its nothing compared to the depression I had last year. That really scares me.

It's possible that I'd get SRS and shortly afterwards find I had to transition the rest of the way. I'm no worse off.

SRS is of interest to me because I'm already on HRT and there's nothing else I can do along the path to transition that's not going to out me. Last time I tried to stop completely it didn't work out very well.

I regard this issue as gatekeeping, and gatekeeping disturbs me immensely. I mentioned before I control my environment, well gatekeeping tries to take that away and I'm not accepting it. I'm sufficiently annoyed by it I feel the need to talk about it regardless of what I actually do. I'm not talking about RLE for HRT because I find its kind of boring, a bit of a non-issue (for me), and the sites TOS.

I truly don't understand why the order of these things matters to people. The moment I socially transition I'm doing the rest of it as soon as I can get through the surgeons queue. What does it matter if I do it now vs later? I don't have any issues that are going to cause me problems. There's no reason I can think of not to, so really, why not?

I see nothing immoral in getting SRS whatever way you need to. I find lying immoral in general, but not to protect yourself, and not in a coercive relationship (as you have with a doctor). But there's many ways of getting SRS and there's no need for it. Unless there's some other immorality you're thinking of?

I've discussed all this and more with my psychiatrist in the past. I'm quite sane apparently.

Ideally RLE should be about teaching the individual how to blend in and provide with the necessary skills to accomplish it. Unfortunately, for many people they end up (or begin) "with standing out" due to features or characteristics which are often beyond their control.

There were cases where schizophrenia was treated with hormones...

Concerning attitudes, imo its also a generational thing.

Older generations tend more to believe in authorities while younger generations question and have experienced that motives were far from honest.

Lets not forget that many really bad things have been commited pretending to having others best interest in their mind. History is full of examples.

Imo a principle of responsibility might help. In old times people used to know it was their fault if their motorcycle fell down because they didn't operate their kickstand correctly. After some time it became fashion to blame producers.

If valueing people regretting against people being hurt by gatekeeping imo there is much more hurt on the side of people being held back.
And sometimes people simply have to make the experience.
Sometimes people have to make an experience and not just thinking about how it might be.