Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 12:08:25 PM

QuoteIt's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to.  Just to fit in.

What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just living beings?

Absolutely!

As I posted above, I'm willing to do the work to create the kind of world that would honor and accept all of us for who we are. I'm glad to know there's a few other people here who are working towards these shared goals.

y2g

As Deepak Chopra (and the Buddha) teaches us, a belief in any of our transitional manifestations of ourselves is a delusion. We are all once were babies, we were once teenagers, we were once saddled with physical characteristics of the "wrong" gender, some now have the physical characteristics of our correct gender. None of these manifestations are really us. We are simply what we are. A unique living being.

I am listening to Chopra now on PBS and being reminded how insignificant (and potentially harmful) all this pre-occupation about how others feel about us is.

True self-actualization is only achieved when we let go of letting others define us.

When I first logged onto this thread, I assumed it was about self-actualization and not about defining ourselves based on how others see. I logged off without commenting, disappointed that this was just another thread about the harmful attachments to being defined by how well we "pass" i.e. deceive people into thinking we are something we are not. I am glad to see that the last few posts might ne leading us into a direction of understanding who we really are, devoid of this harmful attachment to letting strangers define us.

While profound, does this 'true reality and spirituality actually mean squat in the real world? which is what this topic is about? can an unpassing transwoman turn to biggots and say 'but im a beautiful being inside'...
no matter how sexy thier chi is, or how female or male or null thier aura is or thier spectoral energy... they have no connection to living an mortal life on this planet now.
Katia had it right imo... whats with the fluffing around now?
R

I think you're all mostly off topic.

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

If someone were born looking EXACTLY like a squid and they were treated as a person by others and, beyond that, they were treated as their birth gender even though you couldn't figure it out by looking at them, then they would be living as their target gender.

If someone were born looking like Herman Munster and they had GID and all they did was wear lipstick and they did nothing else beyond that to appear female - it is still possible for them to live as their target gender as long as they are surrounded by caring people who understand the issue.

In the Herman Munster scenario, it is most likely that she would be treated as a male by some people in the real world, however, it is still possible that such an individual can live as their target gender.

Therefore, the correct answer to

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

is YES.  Yes they can, under the right circumstances. In a nice world other than the jerky one we happen to inhabit that is so full of judgmental people and biases.  It is even possible in this world.  Just because it may not be likely, it doesn't mean that it's not possible.

I am saying this with love and am not being tough or anything, so if I mistakenly come across as anything other than cool, please don't hurt me.


Rebis

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

what's the "target gender" of an androgyne?  i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as male or female wouldn't be an issue, yes?

LOL Rebis. It is all delusion and illusion anyway. The true nature of ourselves and the universe has nothing to do with our "current" physical manifestation.

Rebis, your Squid/person, would never get treated
exactly like another person because we do really on
visual cues in our interaction with others.

We have many shorthands in our behavior, if not
every case becomes a special case and we go
crazy. Like if the 1000th time driving a car
was just like the first one!

With time, if you know that squid/person, you may
treat them in a way that is close to the way
you would someone of its gender (whatever it is),
but will it be exactly the same. Cognitive theory
predicts it won't be. They'll get their own special version
of learned neural patterns a special addendum or variation
of the original gendered response to the environment.

Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 01:04:59 PM
I think you're all mostly off topic.

Part of the problem seems to be that we all define "live as their target gender" differently. I think we're all more indirectly arguing over THAT then the actual topic question.

~Kate~

Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 01:12:13 PM

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

what's the "target gender" of an androgyne?  i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as male or female wouldn't be an issue, yes?

I can't speak for other androgynes, but yes, it is an issue for me. Being perceived as male doesn't make me happy, my true gender, or lack of, is invisible.

zythyra

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 01:38:20 PM

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Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 01:04:59 PM
I think you're all mostly off topic.

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

If someone were born looking EXACTLY like a squid and they were treated as a person by others and, beyond that, they were treated as their birth gender even though you couldn't figure it out by looking at them, then they would be living as their target gender.

Fried calamares, yummmmm!

Poor squid 

y2g

Discussing the "meta" of the question is perfectly on topic
because its crucial to define what the question means for
us, or if there is a common ground of understanding on it,
before posting any meaningful answer.

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 12:50:57 PM
While profound, does this 'true reality and spirituality actually mean squat in the real world? which is what this topic is about? can an unpassing transwoman turn to biggots and say 'but im a beautiful being inside'...
no matter how sexy thier chi is, or how female or male or null thier aura is or thier spectoral energy... they have no connection to living an mortal life on this planet now.
Katia had it right imo... whats with the fluffing around now?
R

Someone who is complete on the inside is not going to be troubled by something so trivial as the passing comments of the ignorant.  Ya know?  Whereas you can look like a million dollars, but if you're not right on the inside, the merest wrong glance will shatter your entire world.  To my mind, living as your target gender as the question asks, is between the ears, not between the legs.

I will never be able to pass.  I can fit in very well though.  But the idea of passing myself off as something that I'm not is impossible to me at least in terms of a life to live.  No.  I'm myself, and how could I present that as anything else and call that living?

So yeah my I think this target is less about "passing" and more about what "living as target gender" means.

For those saying that you have to "pass" to live as your "target" gender--how do you deterimine if you pass all the time?  And if you pass all your life, but on your death bed someone slips and ma'ams or sirs you--does that invalidate a lifetime of living?  Does that mean since you didn't pass, you didn't live as your target gender?

I think that using the standard of passing, creates an impossible situation with regrards to living your life in your "target" gender.


*as a sidenote, I don't agree with the term target gender, because it implies like passing that you are changing your internal state in some sort of dishonest way.  A target is something you aim for, not something you have.  Just as passing is making yourself seem to be something you're not.  Neither term I believe correctly explains transgender.  I think fitting in is better than passing, and "gender identity" can be substituted for target gender and expand the terms meaning and applicability.  Because now you are bringing in a much wider scope of people, and I think the discussion becomes illuminated.

So if I rewrote the question it would be:  Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look?  Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 01:58:25 PM

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Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 01:49:38 PM

Discussing the "meta" of the question is perfectly on topic
because its crucial to define what the question means for
us, or if there is a common ground of understanding on it,
before posting any meaningful answer.

Off topic, but I was wondering why your posts are formatted like they are.

to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender
R

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
So if I rewrote the question it would be:  Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look?  Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.

Well stated Sarah!

I believe it is becoming more possible to do this as people become more educated about transgender issues. It's not easy to live this way in our current society, especially without protections from laws such as the T-exclusive ENDA and recently jettisoned Matthew Shepard act, but it is possible.

y2g

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender
R

So am I deluding myself to think that I'm "living as my target gender" at work, where nearly everyone knows I was born male?

Sure, I'm Kate, a Her, use the Women's Room, talk about things with the women that only women would discuss... so... my *experience*, no matter how fulfilling, is entirely invalidated since I can't pass with them?

How far DO we carry this anyway then? Must I move to another country and never again have any contact whatsoever with friends, family, or ANYONE who knew me as a male in order to be truly "living as my target gender?"

~Kate~

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender
R

Again you're using the word passing.  Not everyone is trying to pass.  In fact most people are not trying to pass.  It's not a healthy way to live.  Read Nella Larsen's book "Passing".  I don't think it's possible to be complete inside if you are trying to pass, just because of what passing inherently means. 

I don't think if you are passing you are living a true gender identity.  Well, I guess your're living a false gender identity.  But if you for example truly gender identify as a woman, you can't live in that identity if you are passing.  You just can't.  The whole time you are trying to fool people, which means that what you are presenting is not legitimate, which means that you are not really living life as the gender you identify as.

I think the only ones for whom passing is a useful concept is crossdressers.  And even then, for many of them their identity isn't about passing.

Passing is deception.  Life can't be lived as a deception.  At least not fully.  At least from my own experiences.  That's why I had to stop trying to pass as a boy growing up, and live in the honesty of my current gender identification, which is a 25 year old female.  And that journey is what also makes me trans.  But the two are seperate concepts which are inherently aspects of my person.

quite right sarah, if your actively trying to pass, your not being truthful to yourself... or natural. but its a phrase we use really, if somewhat wrongly, when one 'passes for male or female' like were acting? maybe better is being accepted as your correct gender? i know i personally dont try to be female, it just IS now, and its why i 'pass' (there i go again) so well, im chilled, and normal, and give off normal signals. no fear, no nervousness etc...

Kate: no, i never said that... if you read my post, i said unpassable, i think its entirely possible to live as your true gender  if you pass, but are out, yeah some might talk behind your back, but in some places, its possible to be a part of the group as your true gender, dispite people knowing... i know i manage it at university... some of my best friends know about me, and the will all change with me and other girls in the room, or raise _those_ topics... your still a female if people know, your just a female with a different history, but hey, find me two people on the planet with the same life? or the same past? it CAN be just another history... like  'oh thats mary, yeah, she used to be a blonde/athlete/guy/actress/teacher/ginger/had cancer....
Im not saying its possible everywhere, but there are places where that can happen. there are people on this planet who can accept this... dont make the world out to be entirely  crappy, when there can be small rays of sunshine.
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
quite right sarah, if your actively trying to pass, your not being truthful to yourself... or natural. but its a phrase we use really, if somewhat wrongly, when one 'passes for male or female' like were acting? maybe better is being accepted as your correct gender? i know i personally dont try to be female, it just IS now, and its why i 'pass' (there i go again) so well, im chilled, and normal, and give off normal signals. no fear, no nervousness etc...

Kate: no, i never said that... if you read my post, i said unpassable, i think its entirely possible to live as your true gender  if you pass, but are out, yeah some might talk behind your back, but in some places, its possible to be a part of the group as your true gender, dispite people knowing... i know i manage it at university... some of my best friends know about me, and the will all change with me and other girls in the room, or raise _those_ topics... your still a female if people know, your just a female with a different history, but hey, find me two people on the planet with the same life? or the same past? it CAN be just another history... like  'oh thats mary, yeah, she used to be a blonde/athlete/guy/actress/teacher/ginger/had cancer....
Im not saying its possible everywhere, but there are places where that can happen. there are people on this planet who can accept this... dont make the world out to be entirely  crappy, when there can be small rays of sunshine.
R

Come with us over to "fitting in" word-land!  It sounds a lot more accurate to what you're talking about.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 02:30:43 PM
Passing is deception.  Life can't be lived as a deception.  At least not fully. 

I agree.

The original usage of the term passing was by Jews passing as Gentiles or lighter skinned blacks passing as white to gain privileges in societies in which they were discriminated against.

It'd ultimately be better for transpeople to gain acceptance for the diversity of who we are rather than only for members of our community who can "pass". It's bad enough that some in the LGBT community threw us under the bus for ENDA, maybe we could do better and not leave our sisters and brothers behind.

y2g

Im all for greater acceptance, but dont ask me to out myself to help a cause...
those who know me, know what i do for my university's lgbt committee behind the scenes...  greater diversity? fine, just not at the expense of my normality ta
R

Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 01:12:13 PM

QuoteCan one live as their target gender without passing?

what's the "target gender" of an androgyne?  i think that for a person that identifies as "androgyne" (in between genders, null, neither, a mixture of both genders), passing as male or female wouldn't be an issue, yes?

it's not about "passing" for most of us.

Anyway, I was speaking about a true TS.  Someone who could not pass, but who was fortunate enough to socialize with people who are accepting.


Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:48:02 PM

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Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 01:14:29 PM
LOL Rebis. It is all delusion and illusion anyway. The true nature of ourselves and the universe has nothing to do with our "current" physical manifestation.

I like your response.   

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:48:42 PM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
I will never be able to pass.  I can fit in very well though.  But the idea of passing myself off as something that I'm not is impossible to me at least in terms of a life to live.  No.  I'm myself, and how could I present that as anything else and call that living?

That's crazy!  everytime I see your avatar, I wish I looked like you do.   

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 03:53:41 PM

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Quote from: y2gender on December 08, 2007, 02:21:40 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on December 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
So if I rewrote the question it would be:  Can one fit in as their gender identity regardless of how they look?  Suddenly you have a very universal topic, and things get very interesting.

Well stated Sarah!

I believe it is becoming more possible to do this as people become more educated about transgender issues. It's not easy to live this way in our current society, especially without protections from laws such as the T-exclusive ENDA and recently jettisoned Matthew Shepard act, but it is possible.

y2g

I agree with you both, except that I resent Z trying to eat my squid-child.

     Living as your true gender works whether you 'pass' or not when you live in an accepting society.
     I know people will tell me that we don't live in such a society, but that is because the work is currently under way to make it one.  The effort has really only just begun.    If you can't believe that there will be a day when people will be better, if not perfectly, accepted as their true gender without having to 'pass', then you are probably doing nothing to help make it so.  I'm not talking activism.  Just faith and a belief that attitudes the way they are now can be changed and people in general can grow.


Posted on: December 08, 2007, 04:03:08 PM

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Quote from: Kate on December 08, 2007, 02:23:26 PM

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
to be honest, being complete inside, has no relation to living as your target gender, and doesnt help or hinder said living... in the reverse of your analogy... if your uber complete inside, and fail @ passing on the outside, your no closer to living as your target gender
R

So am I deluding myself to think that I'm "living as my target gender" at work, where nearly everyone knows I was born male?

Sure, I'm Kate, a Her, use the Women's Room, talk about things with the women that only women would discuss... so... my *experience*, no matter how fulfilling, is entirely invalidated since I can't pass with them?

How far DO we carry this anyway then? Must I move to another country and never again have any contact whatsoever with friends, family, or ANYONE who knew me as a male in order to be truly "living as my target gender?"

~Kate~

I'm with Kate.  In fact, I had considered her as a prime example in that her fellow employees knew her as "that man" and yet, they accept her as who she is.   She is living as a female.  So it is possible for others too.