Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 10:37:47 PM

Well yeah that's all well and good. I wish more people would start threads on voice training. There is room for everyone.

I don't think surgery is that expensive though. Certainly cheaper than FFS and cheaper than SRS. Might be around the same price as an orchi in some cases, actually.

As for FFS, you can pass and look good without it. I can't, which is why I'm going to get it. I mean I had one woman here who told me I look like Morgan Freeman for crying out loud, and then proceeded to taunt me in PM. So yeah, I'm a bit hung up on it. Hormones may be doing something, but I don't think it is enough for me to be passable to the degree that I want. I want to be happy.

If I had the financial means for full FFS AND VFS I would be all over it like a fat dude on a cheeseburger lol (well I am not a fat dude, yet I can never say no to a cheeseburger gosh I am getting so hungry now).

Also, and I don't like sugarcoating, (ikate) I've seen profile pics of you on here from some time ago and the most recent one you just took off and I am amazed at the changes I've seen, and to me you pass even without makeup, you are a natural. You may be lucky to be intersexed or something, which I think I am not. I am the one who really needs FFS AND VHS but I can't afford either at the moment. And if I had any money available, I'd go for type three forehead recontouring in a heartbit because I totally hate having to wear bangs to conceal those two bumps over my eyebrows. But that's neither here nor there, we're discussing voice therapy and surgery now.

I am discovering some interesting stuff through my daily voice practice. I may start a thread about it soon. But sadly it is kind of complicated because in order to get it, people should know at least the very basics of voice (musical note and octave), which isn't really complicated at all. All people need is a chromatic tuner which shows both the musical note and octave. On my smart phone I use a free application named Pitchlab lite. I suppose this application is available on any mobile system platform. It is a great application, the only "but" it has is that, as usual for free applications, it kind of drains the battery a bit fast.

When one discovers FOR REAL what voice type one is (bass, bass-baritone, baritone, baritone-tenor, tenor, high tenor, countertenor), it makes A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE in what one CAN REALLY EXPECT from both voice therapy and voice surgery.

I've had the privilege of speaking with a few trans women, with different voice types and different ages. And I've noticed this: the MTF women who have a voice break in the countertenor register, ALWAYS are the ones who turn out with GREAT super-passable voices, specially if they started training them during puberty, whether they were on HRT or not.

Since most cis males are born as baritones, and can be expected to break on E4 (secondo passaggio), according to my new discoveries and real-life analysis from my own voice practice and listening to the voice of other trans women as well as cis women like my sister, cosmetologist, hairstylist, etc, they (baritones) may expect to have a NATURAL-AUTHENTIC-SOUNDING fem voice which average is an octave lower (E3). This is FIVE semitones lower than the so-called "female average pitch", an A3. Interestingly, I think the average increase in pitch (anybody who has actually consulted a voice surgeon correct me if I'm wrong on this, please) any of the current voice doctors offers today is around that: five semitones. Which is GREAT for a baritone, but excessive for a tenor, for example. So it sounds like the current doctors are catering to the majority of MTF population, that is, those born baritones.

So, a baritone MTF who trains her voice, may expect to have a female voice averaging E3, that is, ranging D3 to B3, through lots of voice training. If they manage to eliminate ALL or almost all male resonance under and over tones and breathiness, they can actually sound quite convincing as female, even in such a low range. Believe me, many women (and I mean young healthy women, non-smokers, with no breathing issues) do speak in such range, they are usually contraltos.

Anyways, I know I am getting a bit technical here and most if not everybody did not go this far or just fell asleep or went somewhere else.

But for anyone interested, again let me point you to the useful Note/Octave-Hertz conversion chart I uploaded to share with you all, for all of those who speak only the "Hertz" language, which seems to be also used mostly by voice surgeons, as opposed to musical note and octave.

http://i.imgbox.com/OTTxMvJs.jpg

I have been practicing with the Kathe Perez voice feminization method. As many others, they insist that our aim should be an average A3. But this is a NATURAL average only for a person who was born a high tenor or tenorino, that is, a male with a voice break at A4 or A#4. --A very small percentage of birth males are born with this voice type.

Me for example, I am not sure if I break on F#4 or G4, that is, I may be a dramatic or a lyric-dramatic tenor, which are the lowest registers for a tenor voice, approaching a baritone.

This means that FOR ME, a NATURAL-SOUNDING "authentic" female voice after lots of voice training, CAN ONLY BE one with an average note between F#3 and G3. So my NATURAL-SOUNDING female voice can only be in a range between E3 and C4 or F3 and C#4. I have recorded myself tons of times and believe me, when I manage to eliminate most of my male resonance and breathiness and get a clear voice, THAT IS my best voice range, BY FAR. If I go any lower, I sound like an androgynous guy, or like a regular guy. But if I go any higher, which is not difficult for me at all, I sound soooo fake, pathetic, false and "gay", I mean, like a man trying to sound like a woman. So believe me, HIGHER DOES NOT MEAN BETTER!!! It is the resonance and the forced breathiness what one has to ALWAYS have in check. But hey, that's only my opinion, I over-analyze things!

Cheers

Bibi B.

(I do find it interesting that even in this very thread, most talk is about surgery. That may be because it's pretty difficult to share decent voice training tips by text only, though.)

Bibi, I would seem to be one example in favor of your theory, at any rate. I think? I was naturally a "light" tenor who could comfortably sing in the alto range. That may explain why all I really needed was practice and imitation - and I'm a very good mimic after years of acting in childhood - to get a convincingly feminine voice. For *me,* stripping out the male chest resonance was the biggest issue in making my pitch sound female.

(My wife is also a tenor, for that matter. Obviously she has no male chest resonance, but she can sing and speak in a range roughly as low as mine was.)

Quote from: StartingOver on August 21, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
So there's lots of chat about various voice surgeries available, but little talk about voice therapy.  Is voice therapy something that we shy away from for a reason?  I'd love to be able to remedy my voice issues (which give me away bigtime) through voice coaching or something less intrusive than vocal cord surgery, but if it's largely unsuccessful or stressful on the voice, then perhaps surgery is the way to go.

Thoughts?  Anyone tried voice therapy of vocal coaching with great results?

(I guess worst case scenario it doesn't work but it helps me with my speech patterns rather than pitch, and I use surgery at a later date to remedy the pitch on a permanent basis.)

I don't think anyone is shying away from voice therapy, I think we ALL have been practicing working on it and using it, mainly because at the time NO alternatives existed. After more than 12 years watching over my voice constantly 24/7 (i.e I was scared to speak during my sleep) a definitive solution was needed, there's NOTHING worse when everything has been done, that something like that still drag you down. It's no longer a "passing" problem, it become an obsession for UNITY and getting over this. So I don't think that with the Wendler Glottoplaty performed in USA, Belgium or Korea any recursive  failures have happen,  the solution is proven successful (if the patient is doing the things right and flowing strictly the aftercare rules of the surgeon).
I have had the surgery only 2 months ago and not having to think about my voice anymore is PRICELESS.

Thanks for the kind words, Bibi.

I should also note that I started a similar thread sometime back and it got little interest. Actually it got some interest but most were "stay away from surgery!"

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,177178.msg1559623.html

That said, it has some historical value of stuff I tried. It may work for you. I also got some really bad advice in that thread from a few people, so just beware.

Good luck.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 26, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
(My wife is also a tenor, for that matter. Obviously she has no male chest resonance, but she can sing and speak in a range roughly as low as mine was.)

Jenna, if your wife is cis, she would be a contralto who sings in the tenor range lol, a cis woman cannot be a tenor, since that voice type is exclusive for individuals who were born male physically. Although if she was born intersexed or something, then I really have no idea how this would work for voice types.

I recommend people start with therapy where they can learn resonance control, speech patterns, sounds to avoid or be careful when speaking, etc.  A good speech therapist can give you all the tools you need to get your best female voice and speech, and if you work hard and are lucky, that will be all you need. 

Most of the issues I hear women mention relate to internalized fear and uncertainty that their voice will pass when they make sounds they can't really control like coughing, laughing, shouting, moaning in bed, talking in their sleep, etc.  That is a bigger issue to solve and therapy techniques won't always help with that.  Surgery can be an option to address those concerns and to help with a voice that won't elevate convincingly due to being too low pitched.

I use both, and had I to do it over again, I think therapy first is the way I would have gone.  It would have speeded up my recovery by months.  My $.02

Bibi - I think a lot of that makes sense, but some things I would disagree on.

On thing that is true - most are baritones and this makes it harder than for tenors. Also i think the voice break definitely is a big issue as it is not changed by anything. So aiming too high with voice training or surgery gets one into the voice break area and then it can get complicated. HOWEVER for many it seems that with surgical options, the voice break becomes less noticeable and with voice training the break can be "trained away".
I personally started probably as a bass-baritone and now am in alto or contralto female range. Incidentially this seems to be almost exactly the same range as my speech therapist who is a cis female. She can go as low as I (B2, barely, C3 with some volume) and in the upper range it gets harsh at the G5. Her average is about 200 Hz, thats G3. Same with me post surgical. Pre surgical with training alone, I moved from originally averaging at about B2 to about D3 in relaxed voice and to F3 in consciously controlled trained voice. My voice break is very low, at just C4/D4. I never hit it with my trained voice as the effort to go that high was just oo much anyways and I would sound fake going there.

Voice training did for me, and i have seen this for many others: An increase in pitch by about 30 Hz plus elimination of male resonance and ideally getting some female resonance instead, changes in prosody and voice melody. The 30 Hz gain is great if you are a tenor - it will put you right into the alto female range or higher and you are all good just with training. For a baritone it is harder because you will get only in the gender neutral area or contralto range, making resonance and all the other parameters crucial. For bass-baritones or bass voices, even reaching contralto voice is a strain because more than these 30 Hz are needed. This is why I eventually had the surgery.

What does happen with surgery though is that the upper pitches sound much much less "fake". They sound naturally feminine and this is a big gain. With training, it is hard to reach those upper notes and sound natural and not squeezed, which is why I would recommend using training only to increase the pitch by those 30 Hz that come naturally from doing resonance training and mybe some more. The FYFV videos are good in that they aim for a 170 Hz voice, which is an alto female range. There is no need to overstrain the voice by oing higher, its ok to have a low female voice, as long as it doe snot go much deeper. Below a certain pitch, even the best resonance control will not compensate for the pitch. In my case this was the C3 - at that point, I would get gendered male even if I used all my skill to make a female resonance. Interestingly by the way, if I do this now, the C3 sounds female - not sure why that is.

But it totally makes sense to not aim too high - my average now is at F3 or G3, which leaves me some distance to the voice break at D4, making it a bit easier than if I had gotten a A3 voice or even higher. It has to be said though that most women go across the break and into head voice occasionally or some do that very often while speaking, so it is not a total no-go to speak in the passagio area. What I found very interesting was, that my voice therapist also often moves up into head voice when we do exercises and we pass the D4 - so at D4 or E4 she also is already in the head voice, which I found very comforting, given she is cis.

Ok, sorry, I was just rambling a bit - lol

I think voice therapy is crucial and for tenors and sometimes baritones it can give a natural and relaxed voice in a low female range, for people with definitely and proven lower voices (I know we all think we must be bass voices or something in our heads), voice training has to be more intense or supportive surgery should be kept as an option.

I was hot to trot to get the surgery last fall. I was going through a painful divorce and finally I felt free to do something for myself. Costs be damned.

I've always had an active role in music. I have performed for pay often, so I suppose that made it professional. I still had a day job. In any case, my natural voice is bass. I can easily hit a low C. But I can also easily sing baritone and tenor is not out of my natural range if I go into what I call a false falsetto which is NOT good for my voice. Falsetto in the alto range is also natural for me in singing. I played in a rock band in my twenties and I'd trade off on the high part harmonies when we'd do three part harmony. So I had experience in using my voice in a range of situations.

I trained myself by listening carefully to women's speech patterns and then by recording myself. I have learned to raise my voice naturally but it is still in a boyish range. I never have issues on the phone because I'm in the groove and I consciously raise my pitch a bit beyond my "normal" voice. I can effortlessly move to a more natural female sounding voice but I don't maintain it throughout the day. I know my voice is in a boyish range even by upping the pitch (higher than where I had originally) to where I now speak without thinking.  And I know that if I EVER share a room with someone for sleeping and I mean sleeping, they'd better know I'm trans.

So, I'm sure most of the time, my voice is not terribly feminine. However, for some reason the total package works. I've recently told close friends I've had for years that I'm out of the closet and they were surprised to think "lesbian" and when I told them I was trans, they were shocked.

Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times. But I ultimately decided not to worry about it.

I am excited that surgery is now practical for some of us. I'd never discourage anyone from considering it if they wanted to, anymore than I would for so many of the other procedures some of us go through. I call it personal discretion and sheer guts to spend so much money on any of them.

However with that said, take a look at Lauren Bacall. In one of her first three films (and you won't find it on youtube), you hear this clearly sultry male voice as Bogie enters the bar and when the camera pans to her, you'll drop your tongue as you see it's her. She's in a white dress next to a piano. Or, just look at her on youtube. Most of us here are not teens anymore. Her voice dropped considerably early in life. Take a careful listen to her. I think that most of us can easily learn those inflections and the higher ones (which rarely occur) can work for us in falsetto.

My advice is free and worth every penny.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 26, 2015, 04:59:51 PM
Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times. But I ultimately decided not to worry about it.

Hi Cindi,

Yeson is not the only option.

However if you are happy, you are happy. Only you can decide what makes you happy.

Practice practice practice. Phone calls, skypes, drive throughs, online gaming if you want people to be brutally honest. I never used to hear people try when I first started transitioning but now days I hear a lot of girls with great voices.

I can afford any surgeries I want and because I can I researched this carefully and decided against this surgery. Each of us has a different capability with their voice and some may require this surgery. Luckily for me I have great flexibility in my voice which is a great asset as a public speaker, some of us just DON"T have a flexible voice and this may be an excellent alternative. For those who have taken voice therapy there comes a time, after much practice, when you easily keep the resonance in your head and forward to the front of your mouth. There is no EGO and no need to say what is better but rather what is best for you to achieve your goals.

Quote from: Serenation on August 26, 2015, 09:28:43 PM
Practice practice practice. Phone calls, skypes, drive throughs, online gaming if you want people to be brutally honest. I never used to hear people try when I first started transitioning but now days I hear a lot of girls with great voices.

I have to agree. The typical media stereotype is a beautiful woman who opens her mouth and then a booming deep voice comes out. I was amazed at women like Andrea James, Princess Joules and others who trained themselves to the point of sounding like any other woman.

I think some voice therapists do great work and yes, I heard some really good voices that are trained without surgery. Even for singing it works - listen to Namoli Brennet! I am not sure what determines if surgery is an option or not. I had a lot of flexibility in my voice in terms of pitch range (going from F2-G5 if I was pushing it), but my relaxed voice kept settling at around the D3 or a bit lower. I managed to sound mostly female apparently, or so I was told and in everyday situations it did not destroy my "passing", but occasionally I dropped more or the low undertones came up and then I was asked stupid questions or misgendered on the phone (usually on the Phome I raised pitch for the first couple of sentences by habit to avoide this). So a key to training is certainly to get resonance , inflections and melody right, and to get rid of those undertones somehow without loosing volume. I think its hard , so only a certain percentage of people really succeed in getting an unmistakenly female voice, most get a voice that passes as female most of the time and certainly will do so if the appearance is good.

My reason for getting surgery after trying therapy for a while was that I simply felt wrong in using my voice in a way that felt like I always had to put up an act. For some this seems to come more naturally, or it becomes second nature, or if they are already having an above average pitch, just changing resonance and speech patterns will bring up average pitch in a female range anyways. Remember - speaking monotonously will always lower the average pitch, using a lot of voice melody will increase it - even if you have the same base pitch, just because the software and the ears of people will average out all the pitches used.

Entirely agree with Anja, plus the simple fact of knowing that you can still get access to a voice that is so not yourself, this constant threat of having a male voice inside your own throat is not bearable

Agreed with Anja. My main reason was wanting to "lock" my voice to the female range. However I've heard that with training and prolonged use of the feminine voice that happens anyway and it's difficult to speak lower.

Oh totally - I used a changed voice for 15 years and it pretty much was locked in that mode. It was more androgynous in pitch , but resonance and prosody was apparently reasonably female (at least that was the feedback if I asked here or elsewhere - I don't totally believe that though). But it was definitely different from my original voice and when I tried to get back into my old voice to make a recording that would serve me as a pre op comparison, I struggled to do that. I managed only after several tries and actually I was unable to speak for 2 days after that for some reason! (Practicing the mute-phase after VFS - lol). I could not even drop into that at Yeson to make a good pre op recording. So really, it becomes second nature. For me though, that "second voice" was still not really what I would want to use. In daily life I pushed it a bit more to be higher in pitch, towards the low end of the female pitch range and added more resonance control - which honestly made it sound a bit forced and felt fake to me. I believe, if I had been a tenor to begin with and not a bass, it would have been fine to reach that second voice, lock into it psychologically as I did and then be ok forever.

Quote from: Cristal Lecter on August 27, 2015, 06:25:10 AM
Entirely agree with Anja, plus the simple fact of knowing that you can still get access to a voice that is so not yourself, this constant threat of having a male voice inside your own throat is not bearable

Well, some actually think of it as a feature, if they can change at will. You could drive off potential perpetrators at night, or you could scare kids with it or you could impersonate a guy at the phone if needed - you could sing a duet with yourself - lol.

Quote from: anjaq on August 27, 2015, 09:22:39 AM


Well, some actually think of it as a feature, if they can change at will. You could drive off potential perpetrators at night, or you could scare kids with it or you could impersonate a guy at the phone if needed - you could sing a duet with yourself - lol.

LOLOL That' so funny

Quote from: Cindi Jones link=topic=194384.msg1735170#msg173517
I trained myself by listening carefully to women's speech patterns and then by recording myself. I can effortlessly move to a more natural female sounding voice but I don't maintain it throughout the day. I know that if I EVER share a room with someone for sleeping and I mean sleeping, they'd better know I'm trans.

So, I'm sure most of the time, my voice is not terribly feminine. However, for some reason the total package works. I've recently told close friends I've had for years that I'm out of the closet and they were surprised to think "lesbian" and when I told them I was trans, they were shocked.

Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times.

I am excited that surgery is now practical for some of us. I'd never discourage anyone from considering it if they wanted to

However with that said, take a look at Lauren Bacall.  Most of us here are not teens anymore. Her voice dropped considerably early in life. Take a careful listen to her. I think that most of us can easily learn those inflections and the higher ones (which rarely occur) can work for us in falsetto.

My advice is free and worth every penny.

Cindi

...And your advice is 100% welcome, appreciated and COOL, thanks!

I just checked on Youtube Lauren Bacall, in a video titled "Lauren's Best Lines". WOW! I want a voice like that!!! Who cares if it's in the low spectrum? That's still a feminine voice. And I have never liked how the spoiled-brat type of teenage girl voice sounds anyways!

So all your friends swore you were cis? That's so cool! I wish that could happen to me eventually. At the moment, for any practical purposes I am friendless. I decided to stop frequenting my ex-friends that know me only as a guy, and since I am far from being a self-assured MTF woman, I am not even trying to make any new friends in my current state appearance-wise.

I'm glad Yeson was straightforward with you. That means they really care for the patient, not just for the money. But Yeson is not THE ONLY choice, why don't you check other options that could be more optimistic about the results? Just saying. If I could afford it financially I would definitely do that myself!

I am all for surgery too!!! But I cannot afford it, that's my problem. I think putting it all together it would be around 10K US (surgery, plane tickets, accommodations, food, pre and post-op meds). That's probably very similar the cost of my going to South America for a type three forehead reshaping. It is a super-tough choice, because both things (forehead bumps AND voice) do screw me over when it comes to passability.

Cheers

Bibi B.

With the Yeson response, I decided that I could do better for myself by keeping the cash. I've just gone through a difficult divorce (we were together for 24 years), and I think I can refinance the house if I put some more money down on it. The ex wants me to "assume" the loan but that's basically a refinance with the mortgage company and at this stage they'd just laugh at my income level. We're still working on the division of assets and I need at least two months' worth of pay stubs from the pension.

So, I have a boyish voice. Seriously, I listen to recorded self when I use my normal conversational voice with my friends and I sound like a teenage boy with very few female inflections. But I've only been called out once on it and that was at a star party and it was dark. When I told the person my name he said, "Oops, sorry. I know who you are. You're the lady that builds telescopes, right?" I immediately went into my telephone voice and said, "Yes, that is me," with the emphasis on "is" and increasing pitch at the end of the sentence.

I listen to myself using my "phone voice" and it sounds sort of female to me with a unique sound. I never have problems on the phone. I posted my voice here on the board a few months ago. I did the regular basso and my telephone voice. It is pitched up about half a step than my normal. I suppose I was pushing it a bit.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0au5BAQUjyK

And here's my normal everyday voice.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UvDxDTqAx6

It sounds very boyish and I do NOT understand how people can hear it and think I'm female. But I keep telling everyone, "it's the total package. You can have a couple or three manly traits and no one will really think much of it. Just be confident."

As soon as the divorce started, I put a different message on my answering machine in my old male basso voice to screen my calls and ward off a certain person. It worked very well for that. He'd never heard THAT voice before and would NOT leave a message. My mother called and did not recognize the old voice. That was a hoot. She thought that I already had a new boyfriend. Ha!

As for hormones helping me or having trouble getting back to the old voice... nope, not one single bit. I can go there any time I want. But I do have to want to do it. I am thoroughly entrenched in a different range than before transition without thinking about it all the time... even though it still sounds boyish.

Cindi

I dont think the voice in "Lauren's Best Lines" was that low. It sounds fine for me. Its probably a nice Alto voice, not even the next lower one.

If Yeson says its a higher risk surgery, I am not sure if asking someone else will give you much answers. Either they tell you the same, or they may be more out for the money or just be more (overly) self confident if they say "sure thing, we can do that". If a world class surgeon says that there is an issue with that, I would give him the credit and keep it in mind.

Its a bit like when I had FFS consultations. FacialTeam told me that I dont need FFS, but if I want to improve my looks, they can of course offer me some things and we did the simulations for that. Dr Bart just wrote down a long list of things he would do and was already writing a quotation about the price for it while I was still sitting there - totally different experience.