Lets see if we can get some discussion going.  Here is the Question:

So what do you think makes the female?

OK, here are the rules:

Only transsexual MtF's should reply, no GG's please.  After the topic seems to running out of steam then the GG's should jump in and add what they think.

Steph

What makes the Female?  There are the stereotypes, of course, "pretty, witty and wise."  Almost makes women sound like court jesters.  Like we're good for entertainment.  Madam Curie or Mother Theresa would probably say that their life is more one of bringing good things like medicine or peaceful coexistence to society.  Others will swear that men's math skills are better and women's speaking skills are better.  Some will say that women are more emotional...having taken hormones, I think that chemical would make ANY man more emotional.  I remember a woman friend of mine saying that when she was in college in the early sixties, she, like other coeds, received a booklet that proclaimed, "Let's face it, girls.  You're here to find your man."  It was frowned upon, in my friend's circle, to be studious...that was for not-pretty girls.

I've heard from several post-op TS's that feel that, once fully transitioned, that there really isn't that much difference between men and women...that a lot of what we attribute to being female is bunk, social conditioning and propoganda.  It kind of makes some TS's wonder if the trip to being female was worth it.  For me, it has been better being female for one main reason...women are allowed a wider field of actions (hugging, emoting, dressing) than men.  To me, being female is not being in the societally confined box that many males are in (socially, not job-wise).  'Course if I was born in Saudia Arabia, I would probably be singing another tune.  Probably in bass.

Teri Anne

What do I think?

When the only time I think about what was is when I am here.  Otherwise it just never enters my concious thought about what was.  When my mind cannot comprehend any other way of life-thats what makes a woman.

Gee, another tough question.

I agree with Terri Anne's assessment of being allowed a wider latitude in what is behaviorally allowed by western society.  One of the things I always envied about women (back when I was telling myself you-can-never-change-get-over-it,) was the things they could do that male-me wasn't allowed to do (or, couldn't allow myself to do.)  I've always felt women were somehow magical in that respect.

As far as the work/job axis, I thank my lucky stars I've found work in various creative fields.  I'll probably end up with the gender pay cut after transition, but I still should be able to do what I like, even though I've become the 'weaker sex,' whateverthehell that means. 

And I'm eagerly awaiting the start of my own HRT for the releasing of the shackles on my emotions -- one of the things that led to my decision to transition was realizing that my creative muse was my feminine side.  And I'd like to become much more intimate with my muse ;-)

Sorry, this still doesn't answer Stephanie's question.  Actually, I have a hard time articulating it -- it's much more a 'feel' thing.  I have a vivid impression of what I want the post-transition me to be like.  It's weird.  I can picture myself at various activites -- at work with clients, visiting old friends (the ones that still support me after transition,) traveling, at home curled up with a good book (what a cliche, but somehow appealing,) -- and in all my imaginings I picture myself suffused with the quality of 'femininity'.  But for some reason I have trouble breaking 'femininity' into smaller units.  But I'd love to see if you can pry that word/quality apart into ingredients.  It might help me focus on what it is I'm seeking.

Haz

> So what do you think makes the female?

A good question.

You know, I don't really think I have an answer either.

I think a guy would say looks. Ask me and I'm afraid I'd say we are too priceless to compare. ^*giggle*

Good traits however are honestly, determination, compassion, acceptance, tenacity, intelligence... hum, I see I'm just listing the traits I like... for anyone.

I think I was right the first time, I'm not sure how to answer.

Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. It's tough but here are a few of the things I have noticed after 30+ years of "assimilation":

1) Women generally LISTEN to what you say, especially if you are responding to their question.

2) Women almost invariably are interested in feelings - how you FELT about something that happened - and lend immediate emotional support. Men just want to rush out and "fix" the problem.

3) Women will tend to empathize with you (trying to put themselves in your situation) whereas a man will related to the situation as "how he would have handled it".

There are more and these are only gross generaliziations, but it is some of the things I have seen that are pretty constant.

First I'd agree with what Terri Ann said:  that there really isn't that much difference between men and women...that a lot of what we attribute to being female is bunk, social conditioning and propoganda.  I personally feel  that what makes the woman is being able to fit into society and being able to feel as though she fits in with what is expected of her and not being put down just because she is a woman. There are times when ideas by men are looked upon as being higher up  just because they are men and when an idea by a woman is suggested it's only given half credit. Equality is what I'd like to see. 

Gina

Why be so cranky about a question?  I only posed the question for interest sake, something to think about and to spark some conversation.  I would somewhat agree that TS women seem to worry so much about things and some would think that we "worry about so little".  It's almost like asking "Why are we here" in the Spirituality Forum.

What you say is quite true the only thing that makes a bio woman are "Two "x" chromosomes.  Period.".  Sooooooo it would seem that this whole TS thing is just smoke and mirrors.    Based on this you, and everyone else will never be a true woman, no mater what, no matter what.

I'm a woman, some would call me a transsexual woman, but I'm still a woman, a woman with a birth defect.  Every woman is different in heart, soul and mind, and each is a unique collection of metaphors.

Steph

Sorry Steph, I deleted that post.  True or not, I may have unintentionally insulted some of you with my take on what defines female.  Note to self: refrain from posting in a cranky mood  :-[

In my defense, I was off my hormones for a few days

Dawn

Heck dawn if you didn't ever get cranky then you would be human   I wan't insulted though, and I don't think anyone else was either.  Been there, done that, but didn't get the Tee Shirt cause I was soooooo cranky

Steph

I will admit I thought the topic was strange when I first read it and wasn't sure I could answer it, but I guess I will step in and give my off the wall answer.

To me only two things make a woman, being born one (ie Genetic woman) or feeling that your body is incorrect and doing what you can to correct it.  So I am saying body and/or mind.

Trying to go into general society definations seems to be hard since society defines gender roles different each generation.  Society changes the rules all the time.  For a while if a woman wore a bra she was considered a "whore" (sorry for that).  Then later if a woman Didn't wear a bra she was considered a "whore".

Oh well.

Sarah L.

My definition is probably poorly worded, but I hope you get the idea I was trying to put forth.

(revisiting this topic)  Great question, Stephanie!  And the fact there's as yet no definitive answer is VERY interesting.

This morning I started reading Kate Borenstein's Gender Outlaw (one of the books I bought as study material for transition.)  I'm a little over halfway through, and I haven't found an answer to your question there, but the questions Kate asks and the viewpoints she puts herself and the reader in are good for framing the question you asked.

Society defines gender as either/or.  Kate makes the case that it's a multi-dimensioned continuum with two nodes around which most people cluster, or are forced to cluster.

Further, she presents society's gender rules, as stated in Harold Garfinkle's book, Studies in Ethnomethodology--

1. There are two, and only two, genders.
2.  One's gender is invariant.
3.  Genitals are the essential sign of gender.
4.  Any exception to two genders are not to be taken seriously.
5.  There are no transfers from one gender to another except ceremonial ones.
6.  Everyone must be classified as one gender or another.
7.  The male/female dichotomy is a 'natural' one.
8.  Membership in one gender or another is 'natural'.

And I personally think the above rules are so much organic fertilizer.  But in general, society has internalized these rules and will agressively defend them.  Which is why so many T-women are virtually obsessed with passing (myself included.)  If you're caught violating the rules, you're punished.

But this still doesn't answer the question what 'makes' one Female.

Maybe we can get to the answer by asking what ISN'T Female.

Generally, it seems;

Males TAKE.  Females SHARE.

Males are territorial.  (HELP!  Is there a Female trait that's the converse for territorial?)

Males see others more as objects to be used, Females see others more as people to be related to/with.

Males organize by determining who leads and who is led, and then performing in those roles (a weak male will enhance his power by choosing a powerful leader to be led by -- one of the reasons males intensely identify with powerful sports teams, I suspect.)  Females organize by conspiring and co-operating.

Feel free to add to this list -- it's only a start.

Is being Female a willingness to be vulnerable?  One of the cliche bits of feminie body language is holding the hand back in such a way the wrists are bared (and it's interesting that this is seen as displaying vulnerability.)  In fact, much 'feminine' body language and body positions can be seen as showing vulnerability.  And why vulnerability?  Is it because it triggers a protective instinct?  (JOKE: Why are babies so cute?  To keep ya' from killin' 'em.)  I don't know the answer, I just ask the question.

Is it a desire to be nurturing towards others?

Is it being more open to touching/being touched, hugging/being hugged by those who we allow to be close to us?  Is it being more open to (non sexual) intimacy with those we are close to?

I know I have more questions, but I can't articulate them just yet.

Dammit, Stephanie, you asked a really good question!

Haz

QuoteWhat you say is quite true the only thing that makes a bio woman are "Two "x" chromosomes.  Period.".

Then don't read the medical materials on intersexed conditions - that blow that theory out of the water!

Having though about the question, I'd offer another comment from 30+ years as one - if you live among women, understand most of them, share their thoughts and feelings about things, and are accepted by them as one of them , if you find you share most of the same hopes and fears, then you ARE one.

Of course their are cultural context and a bunch of other "social" factors which predominate in women's lives but if you rules out all the social, cultural, and emotional factors then you must be left with only ONE definition of female - the ability to bear young. Fortunately we are not animals and it is all the other factors that carry much more weight than popping babies!

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 30, 2006, 07:24:51 PM
then you must be left with only ONE definition of female - the ability to bear young. 

Not all women are born with that ability and (gasp) some run screaming at the thought of bearing children.

Quote from: Leigh on January 31, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
Not all women are born with that ability and (gasp) some run screaming at the thought of bearing children.

Sorry, I know GG's aren't supposed to post, but I had to interject -- yeah thats me... no pregnancy for me please, thank.you.very.much

Back to your regularly scheduled program

Allison,

Any member can post in any forum they so choose as long as it's topical.

Cassie

That's very true Melissa,

So lets see what the GGirls have to say about this question

Steph

well...

I don't really have an answer...

I don't know what makes the[/u] Female. 

What makes Me Female?  Not sure about that either... other then I just am.

I'm hardly a stereotypical woman.

I hate makeup
I hate dresses/skirts
I further hate pantyhose
..and even further hate high heels
I don't wear jewelry (other then my wedding ring)
I have no desire to give birth
I don't enjoy menstruating. (It only lasts 3 days anyway, I really would just rather not.)
I don't have any desire to have the figure of a twig with boobs
I can't cook
I'm a lousy housekeeper

I married the guy  I loved..... I assumed myself to be straight, that guy turned out wasn't really a guy... and I stayed anyway, compleatly reevaluating my sexual preferances in the process...

So I have no idea what "makes me a woman" other then the fact that.... I am. and I have no desire to be anything but.

I love your answer Alison

Steph

That's why I didn't post a response to the question.  I just couldn't put my finger on anything.  But that's good.  I just am.

Melissa