Is passing as androgynous (aka lack of passing either way) sufficient? Or coming-out? Has anyone been there? I would like to leave this topic pretty much open-ended.
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I have noticed one thing that is unfortunate about it, namely that the typical straight cis people confuse gender identity with sexual orientation and equate being genderqueer with being gay, and the other way round too. So, em, unless I'm gay in their sense, i.e. I'm interested in women, I'm definitely a girl, and what I'm talking is just confusion.

Quote from: emerry on August 31, 2015, 02:10:47 AM
Is passing as androgynous (aka lack of passing either way) sufficient? Or coming-out? Has anyone been there? I would like to leave this topic pretty much open-ended.

It really depends upon what you're looking for, right? If you don't mind being gendered as whichever gender the people you meet might assign you to, then I think it could work very well.

I found that people didn't see me as androgynous. They saw me as a weird male, since it was pretty obvious I was MAAB, so they treated me like a male. If I wanted them to see me otherwise, I'd have to explain it, which meant it would have to be the first topic of any conversation. I wasn't willing to do that, so I ended up picking female among the two binary genders and presenting female instead.

Quote from: emerry on August 31, 2015, 02:10:47 AM
I have noticed one thing that is unfortunate about it, namely that the typical straight cis people confuse gender identity with sexual orientation and equate being genderqueer with being gay, and the other way round too. So, em, unless I'm gay in their sense, i.e. I'm interested in women, I'm definitely a girl, and what I'm talking is just confusion.

That's the problem with any androgynous presentation. People don't get non-binary folks so they'll gender you as a member of one of the two binary genders and just figure you're queer in some way.

QuoteThat's the problem with any androgynous presentation. People don't get non-binary folks so they'll gender you as a member of one of the two binary genders and just figure you're queer in some way.

AND, most of what gender presentation is about in the first place seemingly relates to sexual orientation. The essence of "presentation" is essentially to attract a mate. This is why we wear the things we wear.

I'm at a stage (67 yrs.) where I'm just plain not interested in attracting any sort of relationship partner -- not in terms of sex at any rate. And so the "sexual attraction" / "sexual orientation" issue is moot. About the time I think I present pretty much "male" -- because I am cis-M -- I discover that there are features about my presentation that straddle the ambiguous gender dyad line. Hair to my shoulders, ear-bangles, female "unisex" clothing.

I don't do "femme" -- Not particularly interested in "femme" presentation. This is not to say I don't have the wardrobe. SOME of it works, but most of it feels like a costume.

Mostly what I find is that cis-F don't find me sexually "aggressive" -- No underlying sexual tension in relationships. Men don't find me "sissy" or "gender affected." Mostly they just find me somewhere "more in the middle."

-- which is the whole point in the first place.

Would be nice to be able to present as cis-F -- I mean like in the the shower, with no "wardrobe props." But the endocrine system is a delicate balance, and the andros -- at 67 yrs. old, have pretty much had their irreversible influence.

We need to change attitudes, not our bodies . . .

QuoteIf you don't mind being gendered as whichever gender the people you meet might assign you to, then I think it could work very well.

I guess I don't mind.

QuoteAND, most of what gender presentation is about in the first place seemingly relates to sexual orientation. The essence of "presentation" is essentially to attract a mate. This is why we wear the things we wear.

This is actually a big problem for me. I like to show my shapes, but everyone assumes I'm very feminine in my soul. I think what I am looking for is actually to find a place where I interact with others not from behind a mask. Where what they see is approximately who I am, there are no giant surprises or misinterpretations. I'm more comfortable being perceived as female in the bodily context, to be honest. I wouldn't like to go to a male locker room for example - my sex drive paired with orientation would make me extremely uncomfortable. Or to a toilet.

But interaction in a feminine way is a huge problem for me - I'm constantly met with expectations I can't fulfil - about my character traits, ways of thinking etc. So I'm read as a deficient femme woman, which is really frustrating, because it is a wrong frame of reference.

QuoteHair to my shoulders, ear-bangles, female "unisex" clothing.

I don't do "femme" -- Not particularly interested in "femme" presentation. This is not to say I don't have the wardrobe. SOME of it works, but most of it feels like a costume.

Me pretty much the same.

I dunno, maybe a little bit more masculine presentation will do it - something similar to butch or androgyny. [crosses fingers]

I never really felt comfortable with being overly femme.  Make up and me have never really got on so once I grew my own boobs, had all my facial hair killed off and had my orchie 'op' I felt pretty much like the person I'd always known myself to be.  For a while I did persist with trying to push myself deeply into the female pigeonhole, but over time I've come to realise that all I was doing was making myself miserable.  Knowing I wasn't male didn't mean that I had to be female as the only choice available, but then again back when I transitioned (in the ancient past) GID was a two horse race as far as the medical profession was concerned and if you didn't follow the 'official' script you didn't get very far.

I started HRT young enough that I didn't suffer any hair loss due to MPB and I have wondered if that's one of the several reasons why my now bald brothers hate me so much    For my whole life I've always felt most comfortable with long hair and throughout my mock male existence I was constantly nagged by everyone to cut my hair so I'm not about to start cutting my hair short now in an effort to try and push myself into fitting anybody's social construct of how an androgynous human being should look like.  Fussy hair styles are definitely not my thing though as all I do is let my now grey hair grow how it wants and every so often I will cut an inch or two off the end with the scissors to even it up.  I like my hair best in a high ponytail and I usually wear a long billed baseball style cap which is completely practical as New Zealand has a high UV index and I live in a rural farming district.

My clothing choices are simple, I prefer to wear boots, in Winter I wear roll necked long sleeved tops with cargo pants or jeans, fingerless gloves and a hoodie jacket.  If I wear a skirt it's plain, long and denim.  I don't do tight or fitting when it comes to jeans.  I don't mind showing the shape of my breasts with the tops I wear, but I don't show any skin.
In Summer I'm a tee shirt person, sleeveless is fine by me, but out in the sun I'll wear a loose unbuttoned long sleeve shirt so I don't burn my fair Irish skin.  Handbags are definitely not me, but I do prefer messenger bags, military surplus gas mask bags and the like.  I have a thing for feather earrings, leather cord and wooden beads.  When I was younger I wore a lot of silver jewellery, but I don't now.  The only item of jewelry I wear these days is a stainless steel wedding ring which keeps men away and gets me called 'Mrs Lady Smith' on more formal occasions.

I don't mind being addressed in female terms because it's just easier and I do feel closer to being female than I do male.  These days I find I can tolerate someone using male forms of address so long as they're not trying it on or deliberately being insulting.  Mostly I do wonder if they have an eyesight problem because I'm skinny with boobs in a way that 99.9% of males are not.  Then when I was still a social worker I did work with blind clients for a while so I know to be understanding about these things

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 31, 2015, 10:44:35 AM
I found that people didn't see me as androgynous. They saw me as a weird male, since it was pretty obvious I was MAAB, so they treated me like a male. If I wanted them to see me otherwise, I'd have to explain it, which meant it would have to be the first topic of any conversation. I wasn't willing to do that, so I ended up picking female among the two binary genders and presenting female instead.

That's pretty much my situation.  I'm dressing more and more femme, but given my appearance at the moment, I'm consistently gendered male.  Since a large part of my trans-ness is hating pretty much everything that goes with being male, I don't like that.  It's not that I feel female (whatever that means), I've just reached the end of my rope with the whole being-male nonsense.  Plus, I've never like how my body looks, esp. the male parts.  (Not sure if once I'm there I won't suddenly decide I don't like female parts, either.  It can't be any worse, though.)  So I'm currently planning to transition all the way.  I'll go from gender non-conforming male to (probably) gender non-conforming female.

I'll be the same me, I'll just be wearing a different costume and playing a different role.  At least, that's how I see it now.  (In 6 months?  2 years?  who knows?)

I wanted make a topic relating to  your questions so I will post here to answer yours.
I believe I am passing exactly as androgynous because I don't believe in the made up gender binary system of gendering looks and clothing. I am not sure what being sufficient relates to but it is for me because I am not going to look like something I am not. To people's eyes I am too feminine to be a boy and too masculine to be a girl so I don't care what they think.
I don't plan on coming out to anyone. I cut my ties with the people of my past such as classmates and everyone else and  have no friends nor plan to make any. My family and relatives don't and will never refer me as the true me (male)

Also, yes I do hate it when the ignorant people relate my gender identity or even how I looked to a certain orientation like a lesbian because I found it very offensive since I am female repulsed.