Don't get me wrong here. I don't think I have accomplished either. But if given a choice between those two those goals, I would most certainly rather be fabulous.

While I believe that there is some overlap between those two, I don't believe they are exactly the same. To me, passing means meeting some culturally determined version of womanhood. In some ways it is the same trap laid on all cis women in their adolescence. To be accepted, you need to meet a litany of attributes. Fail on any of them, and you don't meet the grade.

A while back, this whole issue was brought home to me. I was in a rainbow friendly club. Across the room I spotted this absolutely gorgeous woman, but very tall woman. She spotted me as well, and came over to talk. I assumed that this was a trans sister just reaching out to another. She was every bit as tall as me, had broad shoulders, and some of her facial features certainly hinted of the possibility of a Y chromosome. Her voice was also slightly husky. But as I said, she was absolutely gorgeous. This wasn't only because of her physical features, but how she carried herself as well. Yet I soon discovered that she was CIS.

That immediately made a deep impression on me. From the beginning of my journey, I decided that I would focus on being authentic. I always knew that completely passing was going to be a stretch for me, but I have never had that as my primary goal. Instead I wanted to make the outside a direct reflection of what I felt inside, whether that fit into somebody else's vision of womanhood or not. I have remade myself without any concern about blending in. What I have discovered along the way is that I can own my own space by simply being utterly comfortable with myself. A lot of people will respect that, even if they can figure out my DNA background.

I'm with you! I'm an exotic hybrid. That's the beautiful part about me. And I own it!   

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 11:58:58 AM
I assumed that this was a trans sister just reaching out to another. She was every bit as tall as me, had broad shoulders, and some of her facial features certainly hinted of the possibility of a Y chromosome. Her voice was also slightly husky. But as I said, she was absolutely gorgeous. This wasn't only because of her physical features, but how she carried herself as well. Yet I soon discovered that she was CIS.

Quote
Hi!!!

So, how did you discover she was cis? Because you know, there are many MTFs that, in order to stay stealth, do lie about their birth gender. Only their close relatives, the doctors they see and/or maybe the employers, know the truth. Anybody else will be told they were born female.

Cheers

Bibi B.

Quote from: bibilinda on September 01, 2015, 02:28:07 PM

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 11:58:58 AM
I assumed that this was a trans sister just reaching out to another. She was every bit as tall as me, had broad shoulders, and some of her facial features certainly hinted of the possibility of a Y chromosome. Her voice was also slightly husky. But as I said, she was absolutely gorgeous. This wasn't only because of her physical features, but how she carried herself as well. Yet I soon discovered that she was CIS.

Quote
Hi!!!

So, how did you discover she was cis? Because you know, there are many MTFs that, in order to stay stealth, do lie about their birth gender. Only their close relatives, the doctors they see and/or maybe the employers, know the truth. Anybody else will be told they were born female.

Cheers

Bibi B.

I know that there are trans that do that, but she showed me a picture of her with her daughter, and she looked absolutely identical to her. Of course, it could have been a niece or even a cousin. But it was a rainbow friendly club, and I don't think there was any pressure to hide that from the likes of me.

Quote from: bibilinda on September 01, 2015, 02:28:07 PM
Hi!!!

So, how did you discover she was cis? Because you know, there are many MTFs that, in order to stay stealth, do lie about their birth gender. Only their close relatives, the doctors they see and/or maybe the employers, know the truth. Anybody else will be told they were born female.

Cheers

Bibi B.

My birth gender is female. 

Am I lying? Nope.

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 02:37:45 PM
I know that there are trans that do that, but she showed me a picture of her with her daughter, and she looked absolutely identical to her.

I have a daughter that looks very much like me. And I'm not cis.

QuoteOf course, it could have been a niece or even a cousin. But it was a rainbow friendly club, and I don't think there was any pressure to hide that from the likes of me.

Ummmmm even in affirming spaces I tend to not really bring up anything trans.

Quote from: iKate on September 01, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
I have a daughter that looks very much like me. And I'm not cis.

Ummmmm even in affirming spaces I tend to not really bring up anything trans.

Kate, I think we are very different in regards to your second comment. The more I morph along this journey, the more pride I have for how much I have changed. I regularly show off my before pictures in that sort of company. I have lost 100 pounds over the years, and I relish in what I have accomplished. But I am very rebellious in general and feel comfortable being seen that way. I also tend to hang with people who are similar.

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 03:11:23 PM
Kate, I think we are very different in regards to your second comment. The more I morph along this journey, the more pride I have for how much I have changed. I regularly show off my before pictures in that sort of company. I have lost 100 pounds over the years, and I relish in what I have accomplished. But I am very rebellious in general and feel comfortable being seen that way. I also tend to hang with people who are similar.

You're probably right.

I am trans and I don't deny it, but I don't go around proudly proclaiming trans things. I like to blend in where I can.

YOU would rather be fabulouse, that is you, your transition.

OTHERS woud rather pass, (and by passing i mean, be looked upon and treated as though they were CIS), even to other trans, this is their transition.

For all we know, That person, could of deliberately aproached another trans person, to see if she passed to a trans person, to give her confidence, a bigger boost, since we are amongst ourselves more visible in most cases.

That said, that person could also of been, a person that is cis and was just being friendly.

Point is, does it matter? Not for me What does matter is, a person was nce to you


Now, you would rather be fabulous then pass. Go for it, not doing so would mean hiding an element of yourself. eg, putting passing before looking fabulos, when your identity puts looking fabulous before passing

I'm with you, April.

The reality is that most cis women do not pass. The standards we have for ourselves are sometimes worse than the ones cis women are fighting against.

I hope there comes a day when it we get a nose job, forehead recontouring or whatever, it's just because we want to, and not because we feel our features aren't feminine or beautiful, when they are.

Just yesterday I ran into an article on this same idea, titled "I am a trans woman and I'm not interested in being one of the good ones". I don't think I'm allowed to post a link to it, but google will take you there in five seconds.

Quote from: Promethea on September 01, 2015, 04:07:37 PMJust yesterday I ran into an article on this same idea, titled "I am a trans woman and I'm not interested in being one of the good ones". I don't think I'm allowed to post a link to it, but google will take you there in five seconds.

Wow, I took the trouble to google that article, and I'm extremely glad I did. It put into words something I have been thinking a lot about lately, with how transition seems to trap you with the options of either becoming a feminine stereotype or not being feminine enough to justify being trans in the first place. The way I've come to see things, is that transition is really nothing more and nothing less than the freedom to be yourself. Before transitioning, I felt like my life was a box that surrounded me on all sides. I couldn't see the point of doing anything to make my life better, because I felt like all it would accomplish would be to make my box a little more livable. But now I see my life as something where I can be who I am and do the things I want to without having to feel in any way bad about it. That is worth way more than passing is to me, though in practice I don't think anything about the way I've approached things has made it more difficult for me to pass.

Quote from: Promethea on September 01, 2015, 04:07:37 PMThe reality is that most cis women do not pass.

Typo?

Quote from: Ⓥ on September 01, 2015, 05:09:08 PM
Typo?

What they mean is.

When working towards passing, as trans people we tend to move towards looking like one of the woman in our area, this creates a geographical steriotype that we aim for, that not a single woman will conform too.

Basically creating the idea that.

we have to have wide hips, less broad shoulders
a un-ripped but toned abdoman.
long hair
make up
we esentially take, the most common atribute amongst all woman in our area
and work towards that.

but,
not every woman uses make up
not every woman has long hair
not every woman has a toned abdoman for example

yes its true, in our areas most woman will conform to each individual aspect, but not a single woman will conform to them all. making the image of woman we work towards an untrue presentation.

and all woman posses qualities that most would call un-ladylike, and they regulerlay get told that this atribute in un becoming of a lady.

A girl who likes to clime tress and play footall, and would rather not wear skirts and dresses (is but one example of a girl that has her womanhood diminished for none conforming behaviours because she) gets reffered too by The terinology "tom-boy"

Luckily, although this terinology directly uses a word reffering to the oposit sex, in society we have come to understand this terinology to mean  a none girly-girl. So In some way atleast for the most part their femininity is retained. Due to looking past the word boy, and onto what that terminology is reffering too.

But even then, "none girly" means "less girly" "less like a girl" "less of a girl" "less of a pass"

No typo, it is exactly what I'm saying. By the standards we apply to ourselves and other trans women for passing, most cis women don't pass. Most "before" pictures I see in the FFS threads look like any ordinary woman I could run into at the grocery store; not the type of women that would be on the cover of Vogue, or Cosmopolitan, but women nevertheless.

I  get what you are saying, well at least the fab or pass... Im not going to discuss the trans or not trans part of your OP

Im on the verge of being "out", Ive told a couple co workers, therapist, strangers (make up stores)

Im holding on to this notion of what qualities I need to meet before I can go outside and be myself....
what a ridiculous concept.... yes?
 
well, until you are in the midst of it....


We are really not being ourselves if we are attempting to reach these impossible goals... we are ourselves, if we try to be anything else, we are not being ourselves





Watch the language please

Passing is everything to me. I wouldn't even want to be the woman you met, being mistaken for trans. Maybe she was stealth too, I plan on leaving it all behind once I'm done just like she may have.

I have total respect for those trans who want to pass and want to go completely stealth. The cornerstone of my philosophy is that this journey that we are all on, is about each of us finding our comfort zone. And because we are individuals, that is different for each of us.

But I have somewhat of an issue with the idea that passing is the ultimate goal for all of us. Yet this seems to be a well established notion in much of the trans community, our healthcare providers, and even among many cis people.

And to me passing seems to imply a lot of conforming. I can not separate this idea of passing from another idea: blending in. If passing is a goal onto itself, then blending in becomes a core strategy. To me, that means doing everything possible not to draw attention to myself. I find that incredibly limiting.

Somebody on another website once described my fashion choices as loud and provocative. I believe that to be honest assessment, and my personality in 3 dimensions matches it perfectly. But that is exactly who I am. For me, to sacrifice all that, would mean me not being true to my authentic self.

Yes april

Thats WHY i dont do my eyebrows, or make an effort to voice train.

I dont want to do them, why? because im exspected too. AND  from my perspective doing even these two things when i dont want to, put me back in same box.

Conforming to exspectations

For me, I transition to myself to be free of exspectations.

And I like your perspective, I think its a healthy one

For me passing isn't very important. I mean unless I'm out in public by myself and I'm just walking on the street or something. I really don't care if people know that I'm trans. it's mostly definitely something I'm proud of, so often i tell people that I'm trans within the first 15 minutes of meeting them (unless I don't feel safe). I used to worry about passing and yes there are features on my face and body that I wished were more cis looking, but for me the big thing is that I can be confident that I am beautiful regardless of how trans I look. In this department I have improved a ton despite the fact that hrt isn't really doing much for me.

A big goal of my transition was that I could get over being ashamed of myself. I hated my body before my transition, so much so that they idea of having a sex partner was terrifying. I have definitely improved a lot in this regard and I am confident enough that I can finally express myself in ways that I have always wanted. I think this is a sign that I am very well on my way to having a successful transition! And passing hasn't been nearly as important as I once thought it was going to be!

So yes I would rather be or feel beautiful then pass! I agree with you April!

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 08:27:03 PM
I have total respect for those trans who want to pass and want to go completely stealth. The cornerstone of my philosophy is that this journey that we are all on, is about each of us finding our comfort zone. And because we are individuals, that is different for each of us.

But I have somewhat of an issue with the idea that passing is the ultimate goal for all of us. Yet this seems to be a well established notion in much of the trans community, our healthcare providers, and even among many cis people.

And to me passing seems to imply a lot of conforming. I can not separate this idea of passing from another idea: blending in. If passing is a goal onto itself, then blending in becomes a core strategy. To me, that means doing everything possible not to draw attention to myself. I find that incredibly limiting.

Somebody on another website once described my fashion choices as loud and provocative. I believe that to be honest assessment, and my personality in 3 dimensions matches it perfectly. But that is exactly who I am. For me, to sacrifice all that, would mean me not being true to my authentic self.

Well cis women tend to share a common female anatomy and as a transsexual I don't really see why a transwoman wouldn't want to conform to that. I'd like to understand though.