I assume most people know I'm trans.  I've been dealing with the same people in the same part of town for over 15 years.  Most people who work at the stores and restaurants that I have frequented this whole time knew me before, and I'm sure plenty of them have told their newer coworkers something like, "Pssst... that used to be a dude." 

Yeah, there will be no stealthy stealth for Jill.  It's not a secret, and I am certainly not ashamed of who I am.  Sometimes it's even fun to watch people's expressions when they find out. 

But, you know what?  As long as I pass as myself to myself, I know that I am absolutely fabulous and don't give a rodent's rectum if people don't approve.   If I appear to people as the middle finger they deserve personified, then it is on them, not me.   

Quote from: Jean24 on September 01, 2015, 09:15:05 PM
Well cis women tend to share a common female anatomy and as a transsexual I don't really see why a transwoman wouldn't want to conform to that. I'd like to understand though.

Jean, I am not sure what you are specifically addressing here. I have nothing against the acquisition of feminine sexuality. Personally, I am pretty confident in saying that I probably spend vastly more time on makeup than most cis women my age. And anybody who has seen my pictures here knows that I push it to the extreme when it comes to female sexuality, at least for my age anyway.

But I see a real problem in passing as a goal onto itself for me personally. When I was debating about whether to transition or not, I had a very definite idea about what kind of woman I would become. That specific vision of womanhood was far more important to me than being female by itself. And that vision of womanhood was provocative and would get noticed. I rather be that person and get outed, than be quieter and pass. That is not everybody's priority, but it is my own.

Quote from: Promethea on September 01, 2015, 04:07:37 PMThe reality is that most cis women do not pass.

Okay, I honestly assumed this was a typo.

This is a very moderated forum and I don't want to seem too abrasive, but... yeah I'll just say:  I thoroughly disagree with that statement!

Quote from: Ⓥ on September 01, 2015, 11:31:04 PM
Okay, I honestly assumed this was a typo.

This is a very moderated forum and I don't want to seem too abrasive, but... yeah I'll just say:  I thoroughly disagree with that statement!

I think she means there are many surgical procedures that TS get to change something that cis people are ok with having.

Example the hilton sisters have pretty prominent adams apples

I admire people, cis and trans, who have strong personalities and want to get noticed.   April, it makes perfect sense that you'd want to continue to be the person you are rather than stifling it all for the sake of quietly blending in.

But I'm the opposite personality-wise (introverted, shy, and quiet) so it also makes sense that I would like to never stand out; I'm not so much in pursuit of "stealth" as literally blending in so that people don't notice me. I don't hide the fact that I'm trans at all to anyone who actually talks to me, so stealth is not in question. I guess I just wanted to point out that there's a middle ground between being flamboyantly fabulous and being stealth.

So if you were allowed you would be abrasive with me because we have different opinions, but because you can't you go with passive aggressive instead? Hmmm...

I'll expand, since I wasn't clear enough on what I meant.

I observe people a lot, their bodies, their faces, and I have seen that there really isn't that much sexual dimorphism in humans, other than a few obvious things. Specially in the face, there aren't as many differences as considered common knowledge. Texts about it state there is dimorphism in the lower half of the face (mostly the jaw, although there are lots of cis women with wider jaws and most of us here don't have Dick Tracy's jaw either), but not much in the upper half, not in the nose, not in the eyebrows, not in the forehead).

Try this mental exercise (or use some photos and Photoshop it you know how to use it). Look at any cis woman you know, preferably without make-up (or facial surgeries). Even better if you know a man in her family. Observe her facial features carefully and picture her with a masculine haircut (or male pattern baldness), body and clothes. You will see that in most cases it will be a totally believable masculine face. She may even look just like her brother or father (of course most people don't look just like one of their parents, we take features from both, or we would see this even more clearly). I know a few women whose face IS a carbon copy of their fathers'; they could post their portrait here and be given pages of advice on passing and which surgeries to get, and if someone obsessed with "transspotting" saw them they would be read as trans, yet they are cis.

Try the same exercise with cis men.

There are these standards the media has been pushing for years on what a woman must look like (of course they also exist for men, but it's not pushed or "policed" as hard). Standards that are not real. They cause suffering to the cis women that but into them because they believe that means they are ugly. "We" buy into it thinking that, if we don't fit, we're not just ugly, we don't pass.

Getting rid of the beard, getting a nice haircut (or a GOOD wig or hairline advancement when it's needed), and letting hormones change our skin are the only things most of us need for passing (talking strictly about the face). Some of us will look like models just by doing that. Most will look like any ordinary woman our age. It can be argued that learning how to apply make-up is part of this, although lots of cis women don't wear make-up or apply it like crap; I believe it helps but isn't a must.

For the rest of the body it's more of the same. Mostly breasts. The rest is more area or ethnicity specific (i.e. women in my family are built like fridges. Fridges with boobs.)

And then there's voice (not just pitch, and in fact in some cases pitch is not an issue, since there is overlapping in vocal ranges; before transition I was in a choir as a tenor, and one of the altos and I had to change parts for some songs because they were too low or too high; but of course we don't all have to sound like Bea Arthur), and the body language we faked for so long it's hard to change (or forced, almost parodic feminine mannerisms.

Regardless of if the woman April met was trans or cis, I bet if they had met somewhere else she wouldn't have thought she was trans.

I defend the right of anyone doing whatever they want to their body. I also believe it's liberating to realize we don't HAVE to do certain things, and doing them or not can be a choice if we simply want to.

Passing requires less than we think it does on the merely physical aspect. And not passing is OK too.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on September 02, 2015, 07:42:36 AM
I admire people, cis and trans, who have strong personalities and want to get noticed.   April, it makes perfect sense that you'd want to continue to be the person you are rather than stifling it all for the sake of quietly blending in.

But I'm the opposite personality-wise (introverted, shy, and quiet) so it also makes sense that I would like to never stand out; I'm not so much in pursuit of "stealth" as literally blending in so that people don't notice me. I don't hide the fact that I'm trans at all to anyone who actually talks to me, so stealth is not in question. I guess I just wanted to point out that there's a middle ground between being flamboyantly fabulous and being stealth.

I totally hear you, and respect your choices completely. As my therapist likes to say, "This is all about each of us finding our own comfort zone". I will add that it's all about being authentic.

My issue is with this notion that seems to lurk in parts of the trans community, and I have even encountered among cis people when they talk about the trans community.  It is this idea that passing is this all encompassing objective, and that everything in this journey should be about achieving passing.

Closely related to that idea, is another about blending-in.  The logic being there: the more attention one draws to one's self, the bigger chance of getting clocked.

And along with that whole idea is this whole notion of age appropriate fashion choices and behavior. In the year before I started this journey, I was paying close attention to cis women about my age that I could see as role models. I was constantly drawn to rebellious non conformists. These were not women to emulate if one did not want to draw attention.

But for most of my life I had repressed a large of my real personality, and I didn't want to make that same mistake in the process of recreating my life. I decided to act and dress exactly how I felt.

Almost immediately, I got comments about passing, blending-in, and being age appropriate. I considered all that. As I thought about it, I begin to realize how big this idea of passing is both within the trans community and among cis people when think about trans people.

Some of my strongest impressions in this regard came from a monthly trans support group meeting  I attended, made up largely of late transitioners. Too many of them seemed fixated on what they felt were their shortcomings in terms of passing. Most of them didn't seem to be having a lot fun along the way. I would show up in my club wear ready to go dancing afterwards. It dawned on me then that I was vastly less concerned about passing than they, and that had given me a freedom they didn't enjoy.

As I have moved forward from that point, I have come more and more to not only not worry about passing, but also to totally relish in a trans woman identity.  As I have previously said, I actually have a lot pride about what I have accomplished in transition so far, and love to show my before pictures. I know I will never be "mainstream" again, but I am both a rebel and an extrovert. I feel utterly free this way.   

 
Okay folks lets please keep it civil. We don't all have to agree, but we don't need to take offense to something someone said either. Thanks
Mariah

Quote from: Promethea on September 02, 2015, 11:50:47 AM
I observe people a lot, their bodies, their faces, and I have seen that there really isn't that much sexual dimorphism in humans, other than a few obvious things. Specially in the face, there aren't as many differences as considered common knowledge. Texts about it state there is dimorphism in the lower half of the face (mostly the jaw, although there are lots of cis women with wider jaws and most of us here don't have Dick Tracy's jaw either), but not much in the upper half, not in the nose, not in the eyebrows, not in the forehead).

Try this mental exercise (or use some photos and Photoshop it you know how to use it). Look at any cis woman you know, preferably without make-up (or facial surgeries). Even better if you know a man in her family. Observe her facial features carefully and picture her with a masculine haircut (or male pattern baldness), body and clothes. You will see that in most cases it will be a totally believable masculine face. She may even look just like her brother or father (of course most people don't look just like one of their parents, we take features from both, or we would see this even more clearly). I know a few women whose face IS a carbon copy of their fathers'; they could post their portrait here and be given pages of advice on passing and which surgeries to get, and if someone obsessed with "transspotting" saw them they would be read as trans, yet they are cis.

Try the same exercise with cis men.

There are these standards the media has been pushing for years on what a woman must look like (of course they also exist for men, but it's not pushed or "policed" as hard). Standards that are not real. They cause suffering to the cis women that but into them because they believe that means they are ugly. "We" buy into it thinking that, if we don't fit, we're not just ugly, we don't pass.

Getting rid of the beard, getting a nice haircut (or a GOOD wig or hairline advancement when it's needed), and letting hormones change our skin are the only things most of us need for passing (talking strictly about the face). Some of us will look like models just by doing that. Most will look like any ordinary woman our age. It can be argued that learning how to apply make-up is part of this, although lots of cis women don't wear make-up or apply it like crap; I believe it helps but isn't a must.

For the rest of the body it's more of the same. Mostly breasts. The rest is more area or ethnicity specific (i.e. women in my family are built like fridges. Fridges with boobs.)

And then there's voice (not just pitch, and in fact in some cases pitch is not an issue, since there is overlapping in vocal ranges; before transition I was in a choir as a tenor, and one of the altos and I had to change parts for some songs because they were too low or too high; but of course we don't all have to sound like Bea Arthur), and the body language we faked for so long it's hard to change (or forced, almost parodic feminine mannerisms.

Regardless of if the woman April met was trans or cis, I bet it they had met somewhere else she wouldn't have thought she was trans.

I defended the right of anyone doing whatever they want to their body. I also believe it's liberating to realize we don't HAVE to do certain things, and doing them or not can be a choice if we simply want to.

Passing requires less than we think it does on the merely physical aspect. And not passing is OK too.

While I completely agree that we do tend to overemphasize passing and be overly critical of ourselves, it's not really accurate to say that the physical differences between men and women are so subtle. Human beings are not the most sexually dimorphic creatures on this planet, but we are not exactly the least either. Some people are a lot more lucky than others in this respect, and while I would agree there are plenty of people who can pass fine with just the effects of hormones and a more feminine presentation, there are many other for whom even all the plastic surgery money could buy wouldn't be enough. In the face, a very prominent brow ridge or a heavy jawline can be enough to out you. In the body, proportionally large shoulders, and the overall size of your frame can be serious issues, as well as your hand and foot size. For voice, while a minority of men are in the androgynous range, most are not, and some have voices that are too low to even effectively train. As someone who has had a lot of experience seeing other transgender people, if someone has gone through a full male puberty, and hasn't had any surgery, I can usually tell if they are trans. Not always, but usually.

Maybe in the greater sense the differences between a human male and female aren't really that great, and it's just that our senses are tuned to focus on them. But the differences do exist, and pretending they don't, or that they aren't really that noticeable to other people, is an act of denial. But so what? We are not perfect, just like pretty much everyone else on the planet. Whether you pass or not should not be a reflection of your value as a human being. Personally, I do care if I pass, but  that's mainly because I have some pretty severe dysphoria issues if I don't see a woman in the mirror, so I am probably a bad example. I would still much rather live in a world where trans women were accepted as women in spite of their flaws, than one were they are deemed unworthy of being considered real women just because of their appearance.

Take the woman april met?

She was suspected of being trans.
And its highly likely that, this woman was a CIS woman that didnt pass. On account of possesing atributes that transfolk look upon as a "clocking feature"

Ive also told of an exsperience Ive had, were I have had a person deliberatly out me to a friend. this person was pointing directly at me, and said those dreaded words. His friends respoce?

I know, its so obviouse, their make up is horrible and those shoes dont go with that dress.
I was in jeans and a t-shirt.
My CIS friend didnt pass, when sat next to a pre hormone MTF.

Another work friend it took a while to warm up to me, because she often gets called the T word we all dread, and she in part blamed that on Transgendered people for exsisting. She is atually realy great. And is the first to defend me.

So if a person thinks all CIS woman pass, then they are saying all woman that dont pass are trans when this is untrue.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 02, 2015, 01:12:14 PM
While I completely agree that we do tend to overemphasize passing and be overly critical of ourselves, it's not really accurate to say that the physical differences between men and women are so subtle. Human beings are not the most sexually dimorphic creatures on this planet, but we are not exactly the least either. Some people are a lot more lucky than others in this respect, and while I would agree there are plenty of people who can pass fine with just the effects of hormones and a more feminine presentation, there are many other for whom even all the plastic surgery money could buy wouldn't be enough. In the face, a very prominent brow ridge or a heavy jawline can be enough to out you. In the body, proportionally large shoulders, and the overall size of your frame can be serious issues, as well as your hand and foot size. For voice, while a minority of men are in the androgynous range, most are not, and some have voices that are too low to even effectively train. As someone who has had a lot of experience seeing other transgender people, if someone has gone through a full male puberty, and hasn't had any surgery, I can usually tell if they are trans. Not always, but usually.

Maybe in the greater sense the differences between a human male and female aren't really that great, and it's just that our senses are tuned to focus on them. But the differences do exist, and pretending they don't, or that they aren't really that noticeable to other people, is an act of denial. But so what? We are not perfect, just like pretty much everyone else on the planet. Whether you pass or not should not be a reflection of your value as a human being. Personally, I do care if I pass, but  that's mainly because I have some pretty severe dysphoria issues if I don't see a woman in the mirror, so I am probably a bad example. I would still much rather live in a world where trans women were accepted as women in spite of their flaws, than one were they are deemed unworthy of being considered real women just because of their appearance.

I agree with this, and in some ways so does Promethea, they are just highlighting that CIS woman also face these issues.

Another thing of note related to this issue was, after my first Lazer session Two of the three woman I worked with, asked me what t was like, and whe I asked why, they said because I would like to get laser for my tash, but I heard it wasnt perminant.

Point is, in the past they have both had people accuse them of being any number of transphobic slurs in respoce to this. I didnt see this as an issue because, compared to mine theres is invisible, but the fact remains that it is not invisible to them and people have verbaly abused them because of it.

When we say to another member here that they pass, maybe they do, but still feel as though they get clocked on acount of recieving the same remarks as a cis woman would for having such a charactristic.

Point being made is, woman also suffer from CIS-normative exspectations.

One of the things that lets me cope with not always passing on the phone is because neither does my CIS sister.
And since being out, Ive exsperienced, my CIS friends be acused of being trans when stood right next to me. Compared to me THEY cis woman did not pass.

April : I do totally agree with you that if a focus on passing sucks all the joy and authenticity out of life, there's a problem! Passing can be a secondary goal, even an important one, but the primary purpose should be to live as one's real gender (whatever that may be and however one defines all of that for oneself). Focusing on passing to the exclusion of all else makes other people the primary arbiter of one's life, and that's not a happy place to be. With that said, passing can also equate with safety, security, success, and survival (...I have no idea why that's all alliteration) so I'm not going to criticize someone else for caring a great deal and/or going stealth.

I should also add that I'm not in the least worried that attention = clocking; I just hate that attention means people are paying attention to me. I'm happy to blend in as one more boring middle-aged woman for the same reason I was a quiet, retiring guy.

Living as you do takes courage and determination, but it also brings significant rewards for you, and I'll be the first to say that nobody else should criticize *your* priorities either.

I see it as Fabulous is a part of Confidence. Confidence and being a genuine individual = a pass. Let's face it, confidence IS the most attractive quality anyone can have. Everything that they couldn't quite put their finger on = the allure of the feminine mystique. 

By far the most fun topics!  😀

Going to throw in my two cents.

I am transgender. I am a woman in a man's body. Just writing that and not feeling guilt or ashamed or hateful at myself is a big step for me. My best friend has the quote that I use to help me from time to time when I feel low about not being far enough on my journey to my self. "Stop comparing your Chapter One to another's Chapter Twenty. Everyone reads the same story at a different pace."

I take away that my journey is my journey however long it takes. And instead of comparing myself to you wonderful folks on this site, I am going to support the hell out of. If you feel that you pass, that is amazing. If you feel that you don't pass, that is amazing too. The point is that there is no right or wrong way to be transgender. The only thing you need to be is you. Because you are enough. :-)

In the linked video, I talk a little bit about my philosophy behind what I have been talking about in this thread. To get to the part that is relevant, forward to 14:45 in it.

my 2 cents is that as long as no one bothers me they can think whatever they want. the reason I transition is for me.

Yes.

I am out and proud about who and what I am. In the right occasions I love to flaunt what I have, present how I feel, and live the dream.

I am still clocked easily from the right angle. My attitude is - too bad! Life is fabulous. Why would I sit around, waiting for the long term dream of 'passing' to finally arrive?

Life is too short.

QuoteSome of my strongest impressions in this regard came from a monthly trans support group meeting  I attended, made up largely of late transitioners. Too many of them seemed fixated on what they felt were their shortcomings in terms of passing. Most of them didn't seem to be having a lot fun along the way. I would show up in my club wear ready to go dancing afterwards. It dawned on me then that I was vastly less concerned about passing than they, and that had given me a freedom they didn't enjoy.

As I have moved forward from that point, I have come more and more to not only not worry about passing, but also to totally relish in a trans woman identity.  As I have previously said, I actually have a lot pride about what I have accomplished in transition so far, and love to show my before pictures. I know I will never be "mainstream" again, but I am both a rebel and an extrovert. I feel utterly free this way.   

I became more flamboyant and self assured.... after I could pass. Seriously, that was my only objective at first. At the time (1986), trans people didn't get jobs. They worked the streets for the most part. I had an engineering degree, so you wouldn't think it would matter. But back then it absolutely did. Everywhere. Those were the facts of life back then.  Even after I could "pass," it took me two jobs to run away from my own history.

I didn't get FFS because it was practically not done back then, neither was the "tracheal shave." I didn't get any silicon injections which were popular back then. But I did get a boob job. In short, I don't have a curvy shape, my voice is boyish but feminized with training, and I have the face I was born with. The only obvious change I made to myself that most people can see day in and day out is the permanent removal of my facial hair. It's all attitude baby, and boy do I have that in copious supply.

I'm not ashamed of who I am and I am prone to tell people I get to know well, but when I married 23 years ago, my hubby made me promise to keep quiet about it. I did what he wanted. Big mistake. If someone can't handle the truth, they don't deserve you. I've learned a tough lesson much too late in life.

When I think about the reasons about the why, I do understand the "not caring what other people think." But I do prefer to be recognized and treated as female in public and private. I don't wear a sign but I'm not ashamed to admit it to those I know. I do like to stand out though. I'm 5'10" and I like to wear heels when practical. I enjoy wearing red and other bright colors. I tend to go easy on makeup but I could certainly glop it on for a special event.

In any case, I totally get the original post. I'd have to say that in terms of confidence, I'm not quite "fabulous" as used in this particular context but I'm getting there.

Cindi

I don't feel that being fabulous or passing is an either/or scenario. I think that any one of us living true to ourselves is in itself fabulous. Passing is a goal for some of us that may or may not be attainable. Being fabulous on the other hand can be achieved by everyone in the community within each individual comfort level. I don't believe that anyone should be told "you shouldn't wear..", "you shouldn't do...", "you shouldn't...", "you shouldn't...". I personally spent 40 years of my life trying to do what was expected of me, I didn't transition to have a new set of expectations given to me. If you feel safe and are comfortable with who you are, GO BE FABULOUS! 
oh, and if you want to pass then work on that too.

Quote from: April Lee on September 01, 2015, 10:31:21 PM
Jean, I am not sure what you are specifically addressing here. I have nothing against the acquisition of feminine sexuality. Personally, I am pretty confident in saying that I probably spend vastly more time on makeup than most cis women my age. And anybody who has seen my pictures here knows that I push it to the extreme when it comes to female sexuality, at least for my age anyway.

But I see a real problem in passing as a goal onto itself for me personally. When I was debating about whether to transition or not, I had a very definite idea about what kind of woman I would become. That specific vision of womanhood was far more important to me than being female by itself. And that vision of womanhood was provocative and would get noticed. I rather be that person and get outed, than be quieter and pass. That is not everybody's priority, but it is my own.

I'm just saying that I think most transwomen want to conform physically and that helps them pass. I'm trying to understand why you seem less interested in that is all.

I think both ways can be seen as noble, personally I want to be passable and I want to blend in and never thought of as anything other than a "normal woman" whatever the  that actually is. Does it mean I am a self hating trans woman? No. I just want to be normal and treated normal and never have to be reminded of my trans past.

Someday if I can go deep stealth I definitely will, but honestly I don't know if I'd ever get there. 


<No foul language -final warning>