Quote from: Roni on September 11, 2015, 01:16:35 AM
All righty Dena and Ikate! I'm convinced I will be going with Dr. Haben now and just sent him an email asking about the soonest available surgery dates. Thanks ladies! Gah! I'm so nervous and excited haha. I will also try and get up a few samples of my "different" pre-op voices and trained speaking voice in the next couple of days.

Hi Cadence!

My adam's apple is unnoticeable if not non-existent, so I lucked out in that department. I have decided I will only be going for Dr. Haben's Feminization Laryngoplasty surgery.

And yes! The fact that I do not have to travel out of the country has been a huge factor in my decision.

Congrats! My apple also is not noticeable, in fact I have to feel around for it. My voice was also late to drop in puberty so I'm guessing that's why I don't have as much issues with resonance.

Good luck and looking forward to hearing you!

Quote from: Roni on September 11, 2015, 01:16:35 AM
All righty Dena and Ikate! I'm convinced I will be going with Dr. Haben now and just sent him an email asking about the soonest available surgery dates. Thanks ladies! Gah! I'm so nervous and excited haha. I will also try and get up a few samples of my "different" pre-op voices and trained speaking voice in the next couple of days.

Learn as much as you can about your current voice as far as comfortable pitches and where you want to be because in my case what I learned from Dr Haben changed my expectations. I knew before going I was going to need all the boost I could get and I was ready to argue that point if needed. The problem was Dr Haben could only promise 60Hz and not the 75 to 80 I was hoping for. I decided on the fly that the 60Hz was the best offer in town as Dr Kim couldn't have done any better so I took it. This is a place where being a well informed consumer is very important to avoid disappointment after surgery. Dr Haben knows what is possible and can deliver but you need to understand that in most case, a high pitch female voice isn't possible. A middle to low pitched female voice is possible but in my case, I still need to use a trained voice but by not needing to push the pitch, I should be able to use the voice for hours on end like I did before surgery. My old trained voice sounded male but it would do 6 hours or more of phone support a day without problems.

Welcome to Team Haben!!

Best wishes!

As promised, some audio clips of my "different" voices, so you ladies can help paint me a realistic expectation for the surgery. I would love to attain a pitch equal to or even higher than my trained voice. But I also do not want to disappoint myself, so I will be perfectly content with a result where I am simply able to talk in trained voice more effortlessly.

I have had no form of professional voice training so I'm sorry If I am doing something wrong! I really only talk in three voices:

My "trained" voice (no chest resonance, pitch INcreased): http://vocaroo.com/i/s1f4aCFKkhQI
My "middle" voice (no chest resonance, pitch NOT increased): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0vRbBSEgOQH
My "natural" voice (with chest resonance, pitch NOT increased): http://vocaroo.com/i/s1q4M11v8OBZ

Thanks everyone!

Edit: I find I have a hint of a different accent when talking in my trained female voice. It's only because I have to change my inflection and prosody to pass.

LOL, I think all three sound feminine, even the last one. I wouldn't be surprised if the voice surgeons turned you away because they think you don't need the surgery.

Quote from: iKate on September 14, 2015, 07:27:52 PM
LOL, I think all three sound feminine, even the last one. I wouldn't be surprised if the voice surgeons turned you away because they think you don't need the surgery.

Would they really turn me away? Even if my natural speaking voice doesn't meet the female range? If they did operate on me, doesn't that only mean my natural voice will sit comfortably in the female range post-op, essentially what I wanted in the first place. I HATE the feeling when I am modifying or changing my pitch, it gives me a lot of stress, and would love more than anything to just have a natural female pitch.

Quote from: Roni on September 14, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
Would they really turn me away? Even if my natural speaking voice doesn't meet the female range? If they did operate on me, doesn't that only mean my natural voice will sit comfortably in the female range post-op?

I've heard or Dr Kim turning away a few because their pitch was already high enough. Don't know if Dr Haben will. I haven't measured the pitch but you sound feminine in all 3 recordings. As I said, don't worry about numbers. They really don't mean anything. Pre op I could talk at 200Hz but I definitely sounded like a dude.

I mean it's your money and your body so if you think you want the surgery go for it. But my opinion is that you don't really need it.

The three voices are high but the natural voice sounds like 160 -170 Hz and maybe a bit higher. Dr Haben would most likely suggest a lesser bump but I think he would still do the voice. You can offer to send a voice sample to him that he can evaluate before you put out the cash. I didn't make the offer with my samples because I mapped my old voice out and had a pretty good idea what he wanted to know.

In 3 months he will request I read the rainbow passage and email it to him as a surgical follow up so he would have the ability to evaluate you voice before you ever see him.

Quote from: Dena on September 14, 2015, 07:57:10 PM
The three voices are high but the natural voice sounds like 160 -170 Hz and maybe a bit higher. Dr Haben would most likely suggest a lesser bump but I think he would still do the voice. You can offer to send a voice sample to him that he can evaluate before you put out the cash. I didn't make the offer with my samples because I mapped my old voice out and had a pretty good idea what he wanted to know.

In 3 months he will request I read the rainbow passage and email it to him as a surgical follow up so he would have the ability to evaluate you voice before you ever see him.

Thanks Dena! I think that is good news for me, if my natural pitch seems to be 160-170Hz, hopefully VFS brings my natural pitch to 230-240Hz. At that point I can talk freely, ignoring pitch and only having to watch for resonance.

I'll definitely have to talk to Dr. Haben about how much of my vocal folds he can stitch. I'm hoping he will still do the 1/3 suture because that should put me in the 240 Hz range, and I think that will definitely match my height and ethnicity.

Also just went through Dr. Haben's FAQ and found this part interesting:

"How much can you raise the pitch?
A: The average is 8 semitones, or 2/3 of an octave or roughly 80 hertz for a combination of glottoplasty and CTA. Glottoplasty alone averages 7 semitones, or roughly 72 hertz of pitch elevation. The uppermost degree is limited by one's anatomy. Larger, stocky individuals tend to have less favorable anatomy than those more petite. Longer, thinner necks are easier to operate than shorter, thicker ones. The same is true for the glottoplasty. Thinner higher-pitched male voices are easier to operate than lower, thick, scarred, smokers, low pitched vocal cords."

It seems Haben favors working on higher-pitched "male" (pre-op) voices as he deems them easier to operate on?

I dunno if that's the case. He told me that I was around 130 hz. My analysis with Pratt told me I was more like 100hz, but I could easily have been doing something wrong. I suspect he'll still operate on you if you want him to. Just make sure to set clear expectations - if you want super high pitch then tell him that. If you want a medium bump, tell him that. He'll take care of you.

Oh, also, I've found that it's not so much that I achieved higher pitch than my trained voice, it's more like it's easier on me cuz I don't have to think about holding my larynx as much, and it sounds more natural now instead of strained. I think I've been slowly starting to hit a range higher than my trained voice as times now that I'm at the three month mark. So, perhaps I'll continue to see gains as I keep healing.

My voice was about as low as they come and without using my trained voice, I still can sound like a male post surgically. I knew this would be the case going in because male speaking voice was around 100Hz or G2. Using my trained voice post surgically isn't a problem because I have already used it for years comfortably. My pictures of the surgery are posted on my thread but the shorter cord appears to be tied at 50% which is about all the shorter you want the cord to be.

I am guessing but my post surgical voice sounds much like your pre surgically voice.

Second problem with "thiner". In the surgery the tools have to be angled to get the correct working angle. A thick neck makes it harder to get the right angle. I have a thin long neck which would be ideal but it is also muscular and gave Dr Haben problems in surgery. I paid for it several weeks after surgery with a sore mouth, teeth and neck. My teeth felt like they had been knocked lose. It felt like I went about 10 rounds with a professional fighter and lost. I was lucky and there was no tooth damage and my mouth is now back to normal but for the first few weeks I wanted soup or soft food that didn't require biting or chewing.

After thought, I am 6'2" which makes me big and many have contributed to some of the neck stiffness. I think you would have a smaller body than mine and put up less of a fight in surgery.

My voice was different than most in that no amount of training would allow me to hit the feminine range. I didn't expect a ready to use voice out of the surgery, just one where hitting the feminine range was possible with a trained voice. For most people, this isn't an issue and I don't think it will be in your case. Your surgery will be a tuneup instead move moving the starting line.

Roni, I think you sound female in the first two voice samples and somewhat "gay" in the third (probably coming from you using feminine inflection patterns in combination with male resonance). Your pitch is pretty high in all recordings, I think the second recording is totally ok, pitchwise it would be in the female range and your resonance control makes it sound that way too. What worries me is that you are straining your voice just by doing resonance changes - for this you should look for voice therapy in any case to see what you may be doing wrong there. Voice #2 should be possible to use in a relaxed way without straining from talking long.
The trained voice sounds ok, although you seem to add a bit of a different speech pattern to it - it sounds like you have a slight lisp there - the pitch is really high, I think it is not necessary to use that high of a pitch if it is uncomfortable for you.
That said, of course voice and body need to match and if you are as you said short and petite, maybe voice #2 would be too low. In that case, Dr Kim would also not turn you away, because he recognizes the need to match these two things. The main reason he would turn away someone, or at least first recommend against surgery is that the voice is going to be too high for your stature, body size, etc - or that your vocal chords are already short, which is the case in some transwomen coming there for voice surgery but already have rather high voices. You cannot shorten the chords much more if they are already short - you need to leave enough room for breathing.

So I would do the following first: Send a recording of you reading the "rainbow passage" in all three voices to Dr Kim, tell him your body stats, maybe send him a full body photo alomg with it and ask if surgery would make sense. Then, optionally, you could get to a local ENT and let them do an endoscopic examination of your vocal folds, keep the video or photos they make and the full report and send that to Dr Kim. If they can, let them measure the length of the chords.
In any case, I would recommend booking a few (maybe just 5) sessions at a voice coach to deal with the issue of you straiing your voice even if you do not alter pitch. Maybe you picked up some bad habits like I did to change your voice and those can be a rock in the path after VFS when it comes to healing and finding your new , higher pitched voice.

Quote from: anjaq on September 15, 2015, 11:28:26 AM
Roni, I think you sound female in the first two voice samples and somewhat "gay" in the third (probably coming from you using feminine inflection patterns in combination with male resonance). Your pitch is pretty high in all recordings, I think the second recording is totally ok, pitchwise it would be in the female range and your resonance control makes it sound that way too. What worries me is that you are straining your voice just by doing resonance changes - for this you should look for voice therapy in any case to see what you may be doing wrong there. Voice #2 should be possible to use in a relaxed way without straining from talking long.
The trained voice sounds ok, although you seem to add a bit of a different speech pattern to it - it sounds like you have a slight lisp there - the pitch is really high, I think it is not necessary to use that high of a pitch if it is uncomfortable for you.
That said, of course voice and body need to match and if you are as you said short and petite, maybe voice #2 would be too low. In that case, Dr Kim would also not turn you away, because he recognizes the need to match these two things. The main reason he would turn away someone, or at least first recommend against surgery is that the voice is going to be too high for your stature, body size, etc - or that your vocal chords are already short, which is the case in some transwomen coming there for voice surgery but already have rather high voices. You cannot shorten the chords much more if they are already short - you need to leave enough room for breathing.

So I would do the following first: Send a recording of you reading the "rainbow passage" in all three voices to Dr Kim, tell him your body stats, maybe send him a full body photo alomg with it and ask if surgery would make sense. Then, optionally, you could get to a local ENT and let them do an endoscopic examination of your vocal folds, keep the video or photos they make and the full report and send that to Dr Kim. If they can, let them measure the length of the chords.
In any case, I would recommend booking a few (maybe just 5) sessions at a voice coach to deal with the issue of you straiing your voice even if you do not alter pitch. Maybe you picked up some bad habits like I did to change your voice and those can be a rock in the path after VFS when it comes to healing and finding your new , higher pitched voice.

Thank you so much for this!

Voice number 2 definitely doesnt strain me at all! I don't have to control or strain my larynx. I also find that maybe voice 2 sounds a bit more natural..  Ideally my pitch will be high enough post-op that I'll be able to talk as I do in recording #2 and end up with a natural female voice.

Voice coaching is something I am totally going for also, maybe after the surgery so I don't incur bad habits, as you said.

Edit: I notice the lisp too! I don't know what it is. When I speak in trained voice I have to "raise" my larynx and my tongue almost, and there ends up being less room in my mouth causing my lisp. In my male speaking voice I do not seem to have one.

Quote from: Cadence Jean on September 15, 2015, 08:45:52 AM
Oh, also, I've found that it's not so much that I achieved higher pitch than my trained voice, it's more like it's easier on me cuz I don't have to think about holding my larynx as much, and it sounds more natural now instead of strained. I think I've been slowly starting to hit a range higher than my trained voice as times now that I'm at the three month mark. So, perhaps I'll continue to see gains as I keep healing.

I will be perfectly happy with a result like yours! It really takes a lot of energy from me and adds a lot of stress to reach my trained voice. If my natural pitch ends up being raised enough I will probably revert to speaking like I do in recording 2 to attain a more natural speaking voice. Some people are saying I am straining my voice too much and sound too high-pitched in my trained voice.

Quote from: Roni on September 15, 2015, 03:23:06 PM
Voice number 2 definitely doesnt strain me at all! I don't have to control or strain my larynx. I also find that maybe voice 2 sounds a bit more natural..  Ideally my pitch will be high enough post-op that I'll be able to talk as I do in recording #2 and end up with a natural female voice.

Well, as I said, even voice #2 without surgery sounds female to me - its totally within normal and natural female range. Are you sure that you get clocked for the pitch of it? If so, then yes, surgery may make sense as you probably would be able to use voice#2 but sound more like voice #1 without the strain....

QuoteEdit: I notice the lisp too! I don't know what it is. When I speak in trained voice I have to "raise" my larynx and my tongue almost, and there ends up being less room in my mouth causing my lisp. In my male speaking voice I do not seem to have one.

Yes - its this sort of habits that can cause weird issues. One forces one set of muscles into some way to push up pitch or change resonance and other muscles go with it, although they have nothing to do with it - to learn how to use the proper muscles and relax the others is part of what voice therapy can do.

I am so jealous of your trained voice. Lol Maybe I should start talking with loads of prosody. Lol Listening to your relaxed voice, I'd say Dr. Haben will consider you as a candidate for surgery. If you're still concerned about that, you could send the link to your relaxed voice to his office and ask if you're a candidate, before flying all the way out.

I've booked my surgery date for October 14! This feels SO surreal right now!!

Just had another question. I might just call and ask their clinic in a bit, but if any of you ladies here knew the answer to this.. I have pretty big tonsils, like bigger than the average (according to many doctors). Should this affect my eligibility for surgery?

I your tonsils obstruct the passage way, you might what to mention them but if they can get the airway and toools past them, it shouldn't be a problem. The doctor might want to consider removing them if they are a problem. As for me, mine were removed about 8 or 9 years of age so I don't even think about them. It used to be a doctor's office procedure for adults so it's not a major  problem getting them out of the way one way or another.