So exactly how does it work? It seems to be nurture vs nature but we tend to believe both are true?

for me it seems it was my brain developed female (nature) and the way society played out I knew I didn't belong in the male box which caused a whole lot of problems.

I am pretty sure I was born this way. While I didn't figure it out till I hit puberty, my younger behavior was more feminine than masculine. There was nothing my parents or other did in my younger life to treat me as a girl and I think my parents wanted their first child to be a boy. I was my decisions in life that alway pushed me toward the feminine of any two options that were offered. Play with the boys or girls. Active play vs passive play. Have fun or well behaved. Don't care what you wear or dress nice. Do what you want or watch the little kids. I was strange little boy but a nice little girl.

I am not an expert, but here's what I think is going on. Our inner sense of femaleness or maleness is probably inborn, I've read some interesting brain studies as to what exactly is going on in a transgender brain, and it's fascinating. However, I'm guessing that the way we express that maleness or femaleness to the outside world is more or less a social construct (though I think biology does tend to work its way in there).

For instance, since men are usually bigger and stronger than women, and you don't need very many to repopulate a tribe, fighting and bravery are considered the sorts of things that men must have. If a woman is brave or a good fighter, that's ok (especially now a'days) but not necessary.

I think skirts are similar. Skirtlike garments used to be unisex (The Roman emperor Honorius actually banned the wearing of pants within the city of Rome). When pants became more wide spread they were more practical for heavy/dangerous labor so men started to wear them more and more. Skirts on the other hand (especially long dresses) were great for women since they could be worn both when pregnant and not pregnant.

There are other things (i.e. pink for girls blue for boys) which I don't think really have any other reason than something had to be picked.

These are just my ramblings.

My opinion is that gender expression is a social construct but gender identity is not.

What does this mean?

You weren't born wanting to wear a dress, talk in a high pitched voice, have breasts and be called "ma'am" or "miss." Likewise FTMs weren't born wanting to wear pants or pee standing up.

You were born viewing yourself and wanting to be viewed by others, including potential mates as female. FTMs were born wanting to view themselves as men and for others to view themselves as men.

I cannot speak about non binary people as I do not know enough about them. However I think that there is a wide spectrum and we all fall somewhere along it, with males on one end and females on another.

Quote from: Jean24 on September 11, 2015, 11:34:05 PM
So exactly how does it work? It seems to be nurture vs nature but we tend to believe both are true?

Everyone is born with wiring in their brain that tells them what gender they are. It makes us recognize the people who are our same gender and want to be like them, whatever they customarily do in our culture.

We're wired with a different wiring than most - we're wired to identify with the opposite gender (or some combination, or none at all, etc.).

Does that make it a little clearer.

I personally think the answer is "both, for different people." That is, I think there's more than one cause, and so one person may be primarily defined by nature while another owes a lot to nurture/life experience (this is essentially what I think about sexual orientation, as well, since it's the only thing that explains how some people know since they're kids and others shift or expand preferences in adulthood). I was not trans until I was in my early 30s, so for me personally, any explanation that says it was set at birth and you had to know as a little kid doesn't work. I don't know what made me this way - I wish I did, just for curiosity's sake! - but whatever it was, it wasn't hardwired in by nature... for ME. For others, it absolutely was.

Gender identity for me is that deeply intrinsic and persistent awareness of myself as female.  And then what defines a female seems to have tons of cultural overlay that is reinforced from the day we are born and wrapped in pink or blue.

How we define gender is too often based on those cultural sanctioned gender roles where anatomy is destiny.  If I am to be seen as a real and complete woman some would expect that means we have a husband and children and wear dresses as in the ancient Leave it to Beaver TV show.

Experience is huge in socializing and creating these dominate cultural paradigms that many of us find insufficiently narrow.

If the concept of "being a girl" and "being a boy" didn't exist, then I would still like most "girly things" or at least what it society thinks its feminine, and want to have a female appearance, etc... So that's how i see it. Since I always naturally felt that way,  I think absolutely that I was born this way.