Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
You tell me.

I didn't socialize that much with males to begin with, and that was exactly the reason why I got in trouble so much with my parents and peers.  They always expected me to make friends with other males, like sports, be loud, walk, , move, and act like the "man" they thought I was.  Well, that never happened entirely.

Yes, I had to put on an act at school and such but it was a forced behavior.  Honestly it wasn't a big deal to undo the so called socialization *I* had during the 20 years I lived as "he".  It never came naturally so it was rather easy to get rid of it and throw it in the garbage where it belonged! 

tink

I'd say some is inherent (in people who act "male") and some is socialization. I know my ex used to complain constantly that being married to me was like being married to a man (pre-transition), but I also still had a lot of social skills to learn when I transitioned, particularly interacting with straight men, which I hadn't done much of before transition.

Dennis

Quote from: Tink on December 12, 2007, 02:30:22 PM
I didn't socialize that much with males to begin with, and that was exactly the reason why I got in trouble so much with my parents and peers.  They always expected me to make friends with other males, like sports, be loud, walk, , move, and act like the "man" they thought I was.  Well, that never happened entirely.

Yes, I had to put on an act at school and such but it was a forced behavior.  Honestly it wasn't a big deal to undo the so called socialization *I* had during the 20 years I lived as "he".  It never came naturally so it was rather easy to get rid of it and throw it in the garbage where it belonged! 

tink

Exactly, Tink. I think some use their birth sex 'socialization' as an excuse for why they are just like their target gender.
If one is truly male, they think and behave like a man - react like a man (reactions to things are the most telling).
Likewise for women. If she is truly female, she will react like a woman and NOT A MAN.

Posted on: December 12, 2007, 03:36:32 PM

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Quote from: Dennis on December 12, 2007, 02:35:34 PM
I'd say some is inherent (in people who act "male") and some is socialization. I know my ex used to complain constantly that being married to me was like being married to a man (pre-transition), but I also still had a lot of social skills to learn when I transitioned, particularly interacting with straight men, which I hadn't done much of before transition.

Dennis

Exactly, Den. Of course there are socialized behaviours to be shed. But a man reacts to things like a man and a woman like a woman.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 12, 2007, 02:58:30 PM
nero, are you saying that men and women have "instinctual" reactions to situations that have nothing to do with training and socialization?

I don't think there are too many instinctual behaviors like that.  Most of what we do comes from observational learning, watching the males and females around us.  Where I do think instinct plays a part is in how we decide whether we choose males or females as the ones we learn from.  Whatever our gender identity tells us we are, is the gender of the people we will learn from.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 12, 2007, 02:58:30 PM
nero, are you saying that men and women have "instinctual" reactions to situations that have nothing to do with training and socialization?

what would be an example of that?

Yes, they do. It's not noticeable unless with you're with someone purporting to be male and has a clearly female reaction or vice versa.

Ex: You're a transman and you and another transguy go out for a night on the town. Suddenly he starts wigging out on you in a way you've never witnessed another guy do in your life. You're relating to him as you would any bio guy friend and he's actually taking offense to that.
He is offended by what men talk about.

So either he's a very rare bird or he has female instincts and sensibilities.

Posted on: December 12, 2007, 04:10:56 PM

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It's also something that you really can't put your finger on, but you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt the person's male/female or else the sole survivor of an extinct species.

And there's a big difference between reacting like a feminine man and reacting FEMALE.
And between reacting like a butch woman and reacting MALE.

I know what Nero's talking about, it's this hypersensitivity that seems to be present among some, usually young, transman, usually early in transition. You'll be chatting away, bantering, just doing that kinda shallow talk that guys do and this guy will take offence. Now normally if that sort of thing happens a guy will just go "dude, TMI" or "that was over the line man" and that's all. The conversation moves on and carries on.

The sort of guy Nero's talking about seems to want to process it endlessly, dissect it, go on about it. It's debatable whether that's a male or female trait, but I can't think of a single bio guy who'd do that, and I know a lot of women who do.

Dennis

Well Ashley,

There are many women who act on defensive survival instincts. Especially those who've been victims of attack. That's really not a gendered trait. Most women fight hard in these situations, but are overpowered. I see the added strength and the powerful build many transgirls were blessed with as an asset to a woman. Contrary to popular belief, most women do what's in their power to defend themselves and their kin, instead of giving up and waiting for a 'white knight'.

This goes back to cognitive theory, discussed before.
My take is estrogen changes the map by which
we learn from the environment.
Of course, if you refuse to accept the imput,
because you don't want to socialize as male,
then full male or female socialisation won't take
no matter what the map is.

Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 08:34:39 PM

This goes back to cognitive theory, discussed before.
My take is estrogen changes the map by which
we learn from the environment.
Of course, if you refuse to accept the imput,
because you don't want to socialize as male,
then full male or female socialisation won't take
no matter what the map is.

Hello, Kiera,

Estrogen makes the difference.

Having lived in the male mode for 51 years I feel safe in saying that.

The day I started my HRT my T reading was 720 or so.  I have been on E since 2002 and is is way low, like less than 10.  I take it to be ng/dl.

When I lived as a male with the woman within me, I could not understand why they were so gross and disrespectful of women.  We were the butt of many cruel jokes and attitudes yet they wanted us.  Things like "Women: Can't live with 'em and can't live without 'em" were taken as truths.  Some guys left their wives and kids on Friday night and stayed away until Sunday afternoon and that was accepted.  Violence toward women was often explained away by our own stupidity, but I never understood how a real "man" could ever inflict pain, mental, physical, or emotional, on a woman.  Too much empathy?  Maybe.  Too easy to see the woman's side?  You bet.  Kept it hidden?  For my own safety I did.

Male behaviour is, IMHO, an inherited thing that is enforced by a social construct.  I no longer see or feel any of it because of the gift that Grandmother Estrogen has given me.  I'll give up my estrogen when they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers.

Wing Walker

Its a good topic. I'll go for socialization. Yes, there are certain synaptic differences in females and males, certain brain areas that are wired somewhat differently. There is a tendency to startle more easily for females than for males. You can see that with does and bucks as well.

But my thoughts for the day on that are here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,23097.msg174563.html#msg174563

Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
You tell me.

Like Tink, I didn't have much social conditioning as a child and teenager. If there were any I would fight and react against them. By the time I was 13 doing my own thing and wearing my hair very long and wearing quite feminine clothes..

It wasn't until I was 21 that I almost conformed and had a haircut. But this only lasted about a year and then I grew the long hair back again, started wearing ladies jeans and tops once again and was back to my true self once more..

Im going to rock the boat here and throw in an alternative view. some may consider this rude, nasty, unkind, or plain false, but this is an opinion...

There are some trans men and women, who really really wish they were thier 'target' sex... More than anything, its like thier ultimate desire... try as they might, they arnt it... they think, act, feel, and behave like thier born gender... there is only so much we can be taught or socialised into acting a certain way. It is one view, that some transpeople ARNT mentally thier target sex... and that nomatter how much they claim to be, or use threads on trans forums on how to circumnavigate a therapist, or outsmart them. are still NOT thier proclaimed sex. thier reactions, naturally, and inately, are birth gender... there is just nothing that says that they are thier target gender...
what is male socialisation? there are varying degrees yes?
imagine being raised where you were punished for any expression of femininity... and in all male education from the age of 2-18... you'd think the person would be  so male socialised they would find transition hard...
well somehow its effected me very little, other than the lonelyness and pain.... i came to university, the first co-ed environment ive been in, and ive instantly socialised as female. I picked up the behavioural traits, speach patterns, and finally dont apear odd... because i think like a normal girl....  If i managed to do that after such a male upbringing, surely those who claim socialisation is the issue in thier transition have had as male upbringings, or worse.... no, i dont think so.
I know im being very blunt here. but This board, and others, and the transcommunity in general has an ethos of NON challenge of someones decided gender... Im never going to say to someone, your not a man/woman... but lets be honest, point blank beliveing anyone who says thier a man/woman when they behave, think, react, and look like the oposite is near impossible. and there is an element of dilusion and fantisy in some cases... Some attitudes expressed here in writing, are very easy to see someones thought patterns. and a fair few 'm2fs' debate, think, and talk in very male ways... same with some f2ms in some very female ways... im not talking about steriotypes here, or masculine and feminine, im talking about MAN and WOMAN things...
I might be smited for this post, but i think its something that needs to be said. My personal view is one of judging a book by its content... not its cover... [/boat rocking]
R

Good post Rachael......I wonder how people will react to it?

By your argument, of socialisation, surely the childhood formative years would have greater influence than when one is autonamous and thinking for themselves?

R

Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?

I don't know. It's a question I pondered a lot when I was trying to find justification for transitioning, but I've since lost interest. It's just SO tempting to split people into REAL and FAKE so we can feel good about ourselves... by standing on top of everyone else. It's a great way for anyone who's unsure of themselves, or who's afraid to take responsibility for their actions to rationalize why transitioning was OK for them to do.

So even thought it might be true for all I know, I personally try to avoid thinking that way. Whether I'm a real woman or a wannabe, I STILL did it, I still transitioned, and it's entirely my doing and responsibility.

~Kate~

I just keep thinking that as a kid, I played Cops & Robbers, climbed trees, rode motorcycles, raced cars, built tree forts, studied military history... all sorts of "male-ish" things. And not because I was socialized or forced into it, but because I *enjoyed* it. There were no Barbies, no EasyBakes and no trying on panties. In fact, I also thought (when younger) that girls were usually incredibly shallow and petty. Here I am, studying Rommel's North Afrika campaign, and the girls just want to play with glitter paint.

And yet, I spent every second of every day thinking, "If only...", and studied and envied everything about them, even their shallowness, lol.

So maybe that makes me a wannabe then?

I guess the only time socialization clashed with me was when sexuality became involved. I couldn't STAND it when men objectified women and made fun of them. I couldn't understand why they were so stupid and mean about it. It seemed the tables turned as a teenager, and boys became the stupid, shallow ones... and girls came into their own. The catch was, I *desperately* wanted acceptance from the girls, but I did NOT want sex. I wanted *affection*, and intimate (not sexual) relationships... a sharing of our souls and feelings and hopes and dreams, but... I was a male. It wasn't happening. Girls thought I was a boy, and boys thought I was just plain weird. And the one boy who did share... well we ended up in a very odd, volatile, platonic yet romantic relationship that couldn't go anywhere.

Then trying to be a husband, terrified of being forced to be a father, trying to be a hetero male for my wife... I honestly thought at the time I could do it, conform, learn to adapt. But after 17 years, I had to admit defeat, and transition. And it seems to be working wonderfully well for me.

So maybe I'm a real woman then?

See, I dunno, it's only fair for me to test myself in the theory, and I just don't seem to fit very well. I have traits which make me a wannabe, and signs it's "natural" for me too. Maybe it's just the gemini adaptability in me

~Kate~

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 13, 2007, 09:23:28 AM

Quote from: Rachael on December 13, 2007, 08:53:06 AM
By your argument, of socialisation, surely the childhood formative years would have greater influence than when one is autonamous and thinking for themselves?

R

no.  my argument is that everyone's journey is different. 

What does the journey have to do with the reason for it...
imo, the journeys fairly similar... its just some folks have deadends. learning, and acting can only do so much, and SOME people, are wired to inately behave a certain way... no amout of practice will change that.
R

Quote from: Kate on December 13, 2007, 09:14:55 AM

Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?

I don't know. It's a question I pondered a lot when I was trying to find justification for transitioning, but I've since lost interest. It's just SO tempting to split people into REAL and FAKE so we can feel good about ourselves... by standing on top of everyone else. It's a great way for anyone who's unsure of themselves, or who's afraid to take responsibility for their actions to rationalize why transitioning was OK for them to do.

So even thought it might be true for all I know, I personally try to avoid thinking that way. Whether I'm a real woman or a wannabe, I STILL did it, I still transitioned, and it's entirely my doing and responsibility.

~Kate~

Why is there an uber-girly wood sprite arguing with me about this?

And why does having strong but unpopular opinions always have to be about elitism or low self esteem?
Couldn't it be that some are genuinely annoyed that its the 'male acting women' and 'female acting men' that set the stereotypes for the way we are seen?

This is not about elitism or superiority complexes.
We're already seen as wannabe men and wannabe women. And when we've got people out there proving the stereotype, it's infuriating.
I'm sick of the militant man-hating 'men' out there setting all these stereotypes for I am automatically perceived because they whine the loudest.
I'm sick of hearing girls say 'Oh, you're ftm? Cool! I love ftms because they're so much softer, sweeter, and gentler than genetic men.' 

Ashley, hon.
You seem to be taking this all personally. From what I recall, nobody said YOU were fake or male acting or what have you.
But there are types like that out there.