someone i know was just complaining about her bra.

imagine if she had to bind or wear a post op compression vest  

Nah, not like that. When I talk w/ cis girls about bras and periods and stuff, I mostly have a lot of empathy. You got chest discomfort? I got chest discomfort! And let's not even get started on how much menstruating sucks -- am I right, ladies? Sure, my roommate hates it because she spends three days puking and I hate it because it's a gutpunch of dysphoria, but misery loves company. I figure it's kind of like when I talk to someone who struggles with an eating disorder. Their body problems aren't the same as mine, but 9/10 when I say something like "I started crying in the H&M because of the way my body looked in the dressing room mirror," they can relate. 

I do have to laugh at how obtuse some cis people can be, though. Like, damn, I must've lowkey come out to my friends a hundred times in the last few years. But somehow, it didn't matter how many times I said stuff like "Maybe I just don't get it because I'm a guy," or "Can we stop for a sec? My binder makes it hard to breathe" or even "My opinion on this trans issue as a member of the community is..." everyone was still SHOCKED when I eventually asked them to switch pronouns. WTF, y'all? People will jump through the wildest hoops to keep folks in the "cis" box. I don't get it, but when I'm not banging my head into the wall about it, it does crack me up.

Same. "That's what I did, and now I feel great!"

I'd give anything to have been born cis, so no, I don't really ever feel the urge to laugh about any of their problems.

Because the truth of the matter is, in any given day, I go through a lot more torment and self-loathing than almost any cis person would. I'd gladly have cis person problems that are just simple little daily issues over trans problems that make me want to kill myself every day.

Probably because the image that invokes is incredibly aggressive?

Quote from: Nicodeme on September 18, 2015, 10:07:58 PM
Probably because the image that invokes is incredibly aggressive?

I see it as more sarcastic than anything. I also see it as having the viewpoint that people shouldn't complain about things if they don't actually want to do anything about their problem.

It's really hard to laugh at other people. No two problems are equal and until you walk in another persons shoes it is difficult to compare. You don't know their life and you don't understand where they are coming from. I see complaints that I inwardly titter about because from a third person perspective it gives me clarity, and so I see the pettiness or ignorance. That goes for cis and trans* alike. I'm sure others see the same in me.

Quote from: ftmax on September 19, 2015, 03:37:41 PM
I see it as more sarcastic than anything. I also see it as having the viewpoint that people shouldn't complain about things if they don't actually want to do anything about their problem.

Yep yep. This can be applied to other things like if someone has a headache or mild pain. When you ask if they took some pain killers and they say no you can't really feel bad for them as they haven't taken steps to fix their problem. I can also compare it to when grandma complains about her kitchen being a mess. Clean it then and don't expect it to magically change.

 
Okay folks. I can understand that when people have issues and do nothing about them that it may seem like the perfect chance to call them out on it. We totally understand and respect that, but lets please make sure our responses in this or any thread avoid ridiculing or sarcastic remarks about those events especially when we haven't been given enough information to understand everything that has occurred. The end result is rude sarcastic post that breaks TOS 5 especially when we haven't been given all the facts. Lets please be mindful of that in the future. Thanks
Mariah

Quote5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate; or which depicts/promotes illegal acts; will not be permitted.

Quote from: Nicodeme on September 18, 2015, 10:07:58 PM
Probably because the image that invokes is incredibly aggressive?

Right. I get what you guys are saying about the sarcasm -- I've made that joke myself -- but also I think ppl should consider that if you pass and the person you're speaking to doesn't know you're trans, the situation has the potential to read as a man making a frankly sort of threatening statement about a sensitive part of woman's body.

It's all about tone, tho.


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Quote from: Alexthecat on September 20, 2015, 05:29:27 AM
Yep yep. This can be applied to other things like if someone has a headache or mild pain. When you ask if they took some pain killers and they say no you can't really feel bad for them as they haven't taken steps to fix their problem. I can also compare it to when grandma complains about her kitchen being a mess. Clean it then and don't expect it to magically change.

Or you can be nonjudgemental about it. Painkillers aren't all the end all of all pain despite the name. Everyone's body is different. They could be allergic, it could have no effect, or it seldom works because their body adapts too quickly to pain meds and it ends up having no effect.
As for cleaning, again variables. Someone else could have messed it up thus the frustration or they could be a hoarder or suffer from clinical depression or some other mindset.

But I'm okay with not having empathy too

I think what some of you are misunderstanding is that these reactions aren't coming from a place of meanness or animosity. I would wager that those of us who apparently "lack empathy" know very well the people we're referencing in these situations and know what we can say to them and what we can't. We know if they're chronic complainers or if what they're saying is cause for legitimate concern. I doubt any of us would refuse to take seriously the concerns of a cis person just because the things we have gone through personally are worse.

Speaking personally, I don't like venting and the people in my life know this. I'm not a therapist, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a relationship counselor. I'm sorry that they're going through whatever it is, but generally people do not come to me with complaints unless they want something done about it.

I dont think anyone should ever claim to know a person well enough to know what's going on in their minds. You can live with a person for 10 years and still not know what goes on in their heads of why they do what they do. People also even lie about things you ask them. So saying "oh i know this person does x and shouldn't complain" is effing stupid at best. No one knows WHY aside from the person themself so saying "psh no empathy" well you never were to begin with. Dont kid yourself.

Quote from: BenKenobi on September 20, 2015, 12:22:02 PM
I dont think anyone should ever claim to know a person well enough to know what's going on in their minds. You can live with a person for 10 years and still not know what goes on in their heads of why they do what they do. People also even lie about things you ask them. So saying "oh i know this person does x and shouldn't complain" is effing stupid at best. No one knows WHY aside from the person themself so saying "psh no empathy" well you never were to begin with. Dont kid yourself.

That's how you feel. I disagree.

Anyone ever start talking about their problems to someone and they just say 'yeah, well, I've got it worse' and then you kind of wish you never bothered sharing?

Quote from: ftmax on September 20, 2015, 11:52:00 AM
I think what some of you are misunderstanding is that these reactions aren't coming from a place of meanness or animosity. I would wager that those of us who apparently "lack empathy" know very well the people we're referencing in these situations and know what we can say to them and what we can't. We know if they're chronic complainers or if what they're saying is cause for legitimate concern. I doubt any of us would refuse to take seriously the concerns of a cis person just because the things we have gone through personally are worse.

Speaking personally, I don't like venting and the people in my life know this. I'm not a therapist, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a relationship counselor. I'm sorry that they're going through whatever it is, but generally people do not come to me with complaints unless they want something done about it.

thank you.
the person i made this about is a family friend and is well into her 40s. when i wrote it, it was more of an eye roll moment because they have no idea how easy it is in comparison.... before i burned my binder, my mom wore it for a day to see what it was like. although it was too large, she was able to empathize with me. considering i've also worn bras, i would've rather worn one to conceal my chest than to wear a binder......

Quote from: Peep on September 20, 2015, 06:00:24 PM
Anyone ever start talking about their problems to someone and they just say 'yeah, well, I've got it worse' and then you kind of wish you never bothered sharing?

My parents/family do this. They do this to everyone. It bothers me since they pretty much said this to one of my close friends from back in college, whom I know has had some of the worst most insane experiences in their lives. I've seen the aftermath of it. I thought it was rude and insensitive. Probably one of the many reasons I've had to distant myself from my blood relatives.

But some people treat it as a contest when it really isn't. Which can be unhealthy. The few people I'm familiar with who think like this are some of the most miserable I know.

When it comes down to it, like I said above, experiences are not comparable. You are limited to your paradigm. You may gain insight about someone, but your understanding is only an outside perspective.

Okay, okay. I was one of the first people to disagree, but now I think it's fair to point out that empathy is multifaceted and a two way street, and that the other side of being understanding is knowing who it's appropriate to vent to.

People should vent out. For example, if you're exhausted and angry and scared because your nephew has cancer, it's totally understandable that you might need to rage, cry, vent. But you should do to someone who's less effected by the issue than you -- it's not appropriate to complain to your nephew's mother, or God forbid, to your nephew, because they are closer to the issue and are necessarily hurting more. Or like, when my mom calls me crying about how hurt she is because I'm trans. Call your friend! Call your therapist! Call and complain to someone who isn't living it because this is just not fair. The person who complains "in" is being unempathetic themselves, and it's hurtful.

Palealexander, I hope it doesn't feel like people are ganging up on your or calling you names. I think everyone has been exhausted and frustrated by people who don't consider the other side of things, and I don't blame you for rolling your eyes.


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Only at the fact so few of them I've met can actually wrap their heads around this trans stuff. I mean even just on the basic imagination level.

Take my boyfriend. After three years I finally got him in a conversation where I asked him what he would do if he'd been born trans.

His answer was "I'd kill myself". While trying to figure out if this was sincere or disparaging, he followed it up with - "I just wouldn't be able to deal with it."

But how does he know he wouldn't be able to deal with it? He hasn't the first idea what it feels like, or the ocean of patience you can develop having been born with it and grown up with it. How it molds the personality. Or the defiance you can develop that causes you to keep going and change your life rather than ending it.

So I stopped asking and expecting them to put themselves in my shoes. It's rather like asking someone to imagine what it would be like to be born a difference race, and be able to offer answers that are anything other than guesses. Maybe it really is something you must experience to understand. 

In this light, my amusement regards how cis people I know have dealt with the idea of transsexualism is just sardonic. I guess I'm laughing at how surprised *I* am that to some we're as real and/or comprehensible as underwater unicycle-riding unicorns. 

I do!  But usually I am laughing with them and at myself at the same time.. thats my short answer.. I laugh at life.. its amazing..
Keri.. AKA Dodie