Quote from: Miyuki on September 22, 2015, 01:03:02 PM
Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...

she's doing great, the only thing is she will always be the Olympian.

Quote from: lemons on September 22, 2015, 11:06:07 AM
I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

I couldn't really tell you how much I passed before FFS, I'm sure I did at least some of the time but I also used to get those long confused states from some people. Being smaller definitely helped in everyday life but I think if someone saw my face in the wrong light they'd definitely have seen the masculinity of it.  My surgery was a combination of subtle tweaks, often that's all it takes, and nowadays I don't have any problems other than my own confidence. I've never seen your face clearly so can't comment too much but it didn't look masculinr from what I remember. Remember you can get a virtual FFS done, where you send off your pics and a lady basically adjusts them to give you an idea of what you might look like.
My before and after photos are here : http://facialfeminization.eu/portfolio/amelie/

It's worth noting that these before shots are really unforgiving, and that my face carried on improving way after the post op pics were taken through a combination of 'settling in' and hormone effects.

There was an army major here in the uk who transitioned and had pretty extreme FFS, and the difference was remarkable. I do think though that she was a whole lot more masculine than you are, and that you wouldn't need to go to those extremes.

As far as dealing with it all, getting over things you can't fix, I wish I knew the answer, I think it's something that needs building over time, there's no quick fix. Get the things you can change looking as good as possible, and try and improve your confidence bit by bit. It's so hard I know.

Ah those troubling stares ... get them every single day! Yep, I can't remember taking the metro and not being thoroughly scanned by at least one person. I'm on my sixth month of HRT and although I have sizeable breasts, a quite passable body, there's this big nugget sitting on my shoulders that (literally) casts a shadow on my passability. Big nose, long chin, deep set eyes, I've got them all!

Of course there are days when it makes me a little (read: really!) depressed. Assuming ones inner and outer selves is far from being easy and often requires so much energy. But, and here comes the cheesy part, then I remember why I did this and all the words of support from friends, family, and colleagues ("no no really, you look good!") which brings a smile. And voilà! Suddenly all those stares are converted to reciprocal smiles! Apparently, happiness is contagious and is not tributary of our appearance!

I could go on about how the emotions you project influence others perception of oneself, but you know all of that already. However I urge you to try the "smiling" thing. It's good for you, it's good for others, and it might remedy the need for costly surgeries!

Regards,

Martine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Squircle- I tried Virtual FFS and my results in the afters were very uncanny and I still didn't really look like much of a woman.  I'm interested in this UK army major...were they built big too?  Did they have a big head that was very square shaped and all that?

Martine- When you say big nugget obviously you mean head, I remember in a previous thread you said your head was bigger than mine. (mine's 60 cm around) It's often the biggest thing that stands out to me on my body, as while from the neck down my body isn't perfect, I think it may be passable enough.

Additionally, I went to the local trans support group last night and I have two people in there who go and I stay in touch with.  Well, they were both there, and I know at least one of them is a fairly honest individual who doesn't bullsh*t.  Both of them said I looked more cis than trans, as well as another person I know saying that when they met me (another trans woman who doesn't bullsh*t either).  One said that they wouldn't have been able to clock me I look feminine enough, which I can't see at all, but I don't think she was lying.  I felt like the biggest person in the room, I often always do, but they both said my size wasn't an issue.  I've heard this from enough people who I feel are honest enough on the whole...enough trans women who have met me in person have said it...so maybe this really is all in my head...

Quote from: Miyuki on September 22, 2015, 01:03:02 PM
Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...

That plus her voice.

Her name was Jan Hamilton, I believe she has changed it now to live in peace. The press were a bit less sympathetic back then (only a few years ago). Do a google image search for her, and you'll see before and afters. I don't know how well she passes in person but regardless, her starting point facially was about as masculine as they come. She was, before transition, 6ft and 16 stone. She is a bit of a hero actually because the struggles she went through with the army paved the way for people to be allowed to transition whilst in service.

At the end of the day the virtual FFS is just a guide. I think at the moment you are seeing a defeat in everything, which is an easy thing to slip into. Listen to those people at the support group, they have far more to go off than any of us and they are saying you pass. Like I say I only vaguely remember your pics but I certainly remember thinking you'd be OK.

It's surprising how big a deal things can be in your head when they aren't really anywhere near as big a problem as you think. I know this from my own struggles with my feet. And I know if I start to focus on little things it can get out of hand quickly. It's worse when I'm tired, or feeling a little low generally. But the truth is I've been in all sorts of situations over the last few months and no-one has misgendered me, or said anything to me, or even looked at me funny. It's all just in my head.

The other thing to consider is this; people stare at other people all the time, for all sorts of reasons. Back when I was living as a man, it had to be really blatant for me to notice. But when I started transitioning I became hyper aware of whether people were looking at me or not, so in my head, all of a sudden I was drawing stares. Most of the time, they probably just looked at me, then I reacted in an odd way such as staring at the ground or trying to hide my face, so they carried on looking.

The other thing you have to consider is that men, especially, love to stare at women.

They don't stare at men because of homophobia, unless it's a gay guy staring at guys.

I notice a lot of men stare at me, some smile, so me say hello, some say other things, some of which I cannot repeat here. Never anything transphobic. So I can only reasonably conclude that they are staring at me because I register with them as a woman.

In Korea everyone stared at me and my (cisgender) mom, because we are dark skinned foreigners and stick out like a sore thumb. That's all it was, period.

Found pictures of Jan Hamilton...yes her facial structure was more masculine than mine, but her head and face size and shape isn't...she had quite a small/normal sized head for a woman. I can't imagine she has problems passing now, she looks really good.

Jan Hamilton was much more masculine looking all round than you are, and she transitioned successfully. You keep convincing yourself that you have some major problem that no one else has that will stop you from ever passing.

I went back through this thread to look at the photos you posted. Your head doesn't look big, or square.

So, I have been following your posts too. And I think you're the perfect case to share my brutal honesty with.

First of all, about your head. Your head circumference its not so unusual or big, mine is almost 60 cm too and I'm shorter than you (5'7'') and I'm an M size on women's cycling helmets (just check sizing in brands like Specialized for helmets, 60cm its not even an L women size).

It's true you could benefit from FFS, specially from Jaw/Chin reduction. Its true that while not masculine in shape your jaw may be a little on the big side for a girl and this can be masculinizing to some extent and making your head look a little more big.

But the overall head size its not masculine. In fact, a big head is an usual trait of neoteny (just like a childs head, it is proportionally bigger). Neoteny and femininty go hand in hand (the most neotenic a female adult looks the most attractive is perceived by adult males, just science).

About the rest of your face, it looks pretty ok to me. You got little to no brow bossing, a low bridged nose (its not small but looks feminine) and a head full of hair.

Now, about your frame. Yeah, you don't have one of those ultra petite asian-like body frames, but I think is pretty within the female ranges. Moreover, you don't look muscular at all, not even toned. If I were you, I would give a try to lose some weight (not much, you're not overweight). A very skinny girl will always look andro (sometimes less is more), so you don't have to worry about having large boobs or a big booty (and those can be solved by surgery) while you can benefit from looking a little more petite overall. I don't know whats your BMI rite now, but I guess you could try to be around 18-19 and see how you look.

And now, about your presentation. Well, your presentation is... to put it politely, not the best one . I understand you when you say you're too feminine and shy on the inside that you don't want to overdo it an look fake. Ok, I get that, happened to me, but... that should not prevent you from improving. Why don't you try making baby steps? Just a little at a time? It's not about going from butch to hyper-girly on a day, but about making little steps. Lots of cis girls would have trouble passing putting the same effort as you on their presentation. Hon, we all think you can do it *A LOT* better without overdoing nor going very girly.

As a sidenote if you're thinking of growing your hair (which will be really nice) then please straighten it. Lack of volume can benefit you and it will turn the hair more malleable. Keratin and such, give it a try.

Also as a sidenote, I remember the pic with your girlfriend you posted and well... lemme say you look *WAY MORE* passable than her.

That said.

In general, I'm about as feminine as a smashed crab.. My measurements are all over the scale.. But guess what? I actually have very few issues passing - partly because I simply don't give a hoot and partly because people don't wander around looking at 'measurements' - only other trans women will do that.

Part of the reason you don't pass is that you don't believe you do, it's really that simple. OK, longer hair and some neater brows wouldn't go astray, but if your attitude is off, you might as well tattoo it across your forehead. Relax, take a chill pill and just enjoy being the woman you are. If you can do that, you'll find you pass way more than you do now.

I knew when I transitioned some 23 years ago now that I wasn't going to be anymore than a 6 foot tall, plain faced, flat chested, long limbed kind of woman.  I used to be a heavy truck mechanic so while I was lean and wiry I did have some serious muscle in my arms and shoulders, though HRT has taken most of that away over the years.  I take a women's size 11 in shoes so my feet are about average for a TG person and my hands aren't so much large as long.
I identify as non-binary so I don't particularly go for frilly girly things and much prefer jeans and boots, a Tee shirt and a hoodie top as my usual everyday clothing.  I don't wear make up or pluck my eyebrows, but I do have a weakness for feather earrings though.  Despite that I still get addressed in femme terms whenever I'm out and about and most of that has to do with being completely comfortable inside my own skin.
The biggest thing I found in helping me to male-fail was having electrolysis done so I don't have any facial hair.  I've always worn my hair long too, though these days it's mostly pulled back into a high ponytail.  I had an orchie done around 19 years ago and that made a big difference to my body's natural scent so I smell female.

I'm completely with Kelly by the way.  If you believe in yourself and are comfortable in your own skin you will 'pass' (whatever that is) better than you do now.  Basically I don't give a fig what anybody thinks of me because this is the person that I am and I'm not going to live a faux life for no-one no matter who they are.

By the way I live in a rural dairy farming district and there are women of Norwegian and Dutch descent here who are bigger and taller than I am and nobody ever tries telling them that they aren't women

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 23, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
Part of the reason you don't pass is that you don't believe you do, it's really that simple ... if your attitude is off, you might as well tattoo it across your forehead.

Quite correct.

Clever camera angles aside, I do not pass. But I do not spend my hours and days dwelling on it.

I get on with life and have a friendly, positive attitude. My personality is quite femme. While I am obviously trans - I am also obviously in harmony with my identity. This is what people respond to - the way I am. Not how I look.

And as I like to say so often, this isn't even trans specific. I don't identify other people by their appearance, either. I am far more interested in who somebody is.

Of course, I will misread people as well. The only way to see a person's true identity is to *get to know them*. Everything else is idealised preconception.

Hi Lemons,

Noticed some of your posts before. I have kind of taken a bit of an interest because your concerns are pretty much exactly what mine would be about going on HRT and I see some similarities in our body types. I'm 26 and realised a year ago I'm probably trans and now I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. My head is 61cm. Similar to what you have said about yourself, in a photo or out of context my face could actually look reasonably feminine and with some minor FFS I think could maybe even look good. But that's in a photo. Everything about my head and facial features is on the large scale. People always tell me I have a big head, and that's as a guy. So I sympathise with you even though for me its only a theoretical obstacle at this point. Firstly, from your pictures, I don't think you have anything to worry about frame wise. I know its hard to hear that when you know a picture might be misleading but that is my opinion. You have hips and very female looking proportions to me. You definitely have it better than I would. My feet are mens UK 12 so 13 in US and God knows what in female-specially made probably! But mainly my problem is my head size and my pelvis. I have a huge pelvis but narrow hips. I don't have a waist and couldn't ever because above the legs I'm basically just bone all the way up to my head. The worst thing is I'm only 6ft. Everything is bigger than it should be.

Ok so I hope other people don't jump down my neck here, but I can see what you mean about your head. It seems almost identical in shape to mine. That isn't me saying it should be an obstacle to you passing though. I just sympathise with your concerns. In those photos you definitely read as female. Some women do have big heads and its kind of ironic that I get mine from my Mum. Like others said growing your hair could potentially really help. As someone said above it's pretty common to misgender a cis female if they have a short masculine looking haircut. I get what you mean about feeling awkward if you still don't feel you pass but its worth at least trying because if it does work then that seems like it could really help you out with the way you feel about yourself.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but are you still glad you transitioned? I'm really trying to figure out what to do and I have trouble knowing whether the struggle would be worth throwing away the security I have now. I don't think I'd really pass, but I'm hopeful maybe my emotional state might be improved because right now I'm completely conflicted about who I am. I also do think the best thing you can do is stop caring about what others think about you. It's kind of cruel that that in turn also helps with passability, which I think it does. I'm a little concerned I couldn't handle transitioning. I admire people who don't care about what others are thinking about them but that is just not me and I get that being told to try that can be a little frustrating. Its like ok hang on I'll just go and re-wire my whole personality. But good luck getting there I'm sure people will say it's a process. And none of this is to say you don't pass already, because like I said in those photos you read female to me.

Quote from: Zoetrope on September 23, 2015, 09:03:21 PM

Quite correct.

Clever camera angles aside, I do not pass. But I do not spend my hours and days dwelling on it.

I get on with life and have a friendly, positive attitude. My personality is quite femme. While I am obviously trans - I am also obviously in harmony with my identity. This is what people respond to - the way I am. Not how I look.

And as I like to say so often, this isn't even trans specific. I don't identify other people by their appearance, either. I am far more interested in who somebody is.

Of course, I will misread people as well. The only way to see a person's true identity is to *get to know them*. Everything else is idealised preconception.

+1 for that! 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: orangejuice on September 24, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
Stuff.

I'm also 6 feet and very large boned.  It sounds like we have very similar body types.  Even though fat and such has redistributed and I've shed all my muscle so I look a tad more femme, I still look too big out in the world because my bone structure makes everything much larger than it would be on a regular 6ft tall woman.

I had a feeling I wasn't alone in this.  I can't imagine I'll ever be able to pass from behind because of how big my head reads as male.  It's only happened twice.

Hope you didn't misunderstand me. In your pics you completely look female. I just understand why you have concerns about your head and in the side on picture in particular I see similarities to my own skull shape. But women can have big heads, and yours doesn't stand out as any kind of obstacle to passing because I think the rest of you looks 100% female. You've also got good hair.  I kissed goodbye to my nice thick hair at 18 and in the last 6 months I've probably reached the point it wouldn't be salvageable and I'd need a wig, which denies me a pretty large tool when it comes to 'passability'. Honestly, I can only see where you're coming from with your head and like I said you still read female. I think you're wrong about your frame, it looks pretty female to me and I'd easily swap yours for mine.

Quote from: lemons on September 24, 2015, 05:07:39 PM
I'm also 6 feet and very large boned.  It sounds like we have very similar body types.  Even though fat and such has redistributed and I've shed all my muscle so I look a tad more femme, I still look too big out in the world because my bone structure makes everything much larger than it would be on a regular 6ft tall woman.

I had a feeling I wasn't alone in this.  I can't imagine I'll ever be able to pass from behind because of how big my head reads as male.  It's only happened twice.

I know everyone is essentially going to tell you about perspective, from their experience to general advice about how all women come in different shapes and sizes. I've met many cis women taller than me, while I'm a bit under 5'10" I used to think along the same lines you have stated.
But here's my question, who are you transitioning for?
At the end of the day, you can't help being who you are. Part of the female condition is having things about your body that make you insecure and emphasizing your strengths with your fashion choices.
Forgive me for saying this, but if life gave you lemons, what are you going to do about it?
Hint: the answer is make some fraking lemonade! ;-)


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: lemons on September 23, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
Squircle- I tried Virtual FFS and my results in the afters were very uncanny and I still didn't really look like much of a woman.  I'm interested in this UK army major...were they built big too?  Did they have a big head that was very square shaped and all that?

Martine- When you say big nugget obviously you mean head, I remember in a previous thread you said your head was bigger than mine. (mine's 60 cm around) It's often the biggest thing that stands out to me on my body, as while from the neck down my body isn't perfect, I think it may be passable enough.

Additionally, I went to the local trans support group last night and I have two people in there who go and I stay in touch with.  Well, they were both there, and I know at least one of them is a fairly honest individual who doesn't bullsh*t.  Both of them said I looked more cis than trans, as well as another person I know saying that when they met me (another trans woman who doesn't bullsh*t either).  One said that they wouldn't have been able to clock me I look feminine enough, which I can't see at all, but I don't think she was lying.  I felt like the biggest person in the room, I often always do, but they both said my size wasn't an issue.  I've heard this from enough people who I feel are honest enough on the whole...enough trans women who have met me in person have said it...so maybe this really is all in my head...

My body is as cis as you can get for being a trans woman who started hrt at 21, wide hips, small frame etc but for whatever reason I still feel big. I'm still sub conscience of my wide shoulders, even though it's perfectly within the female range. I mean my whole body and face is but I can't shake this feeling of being big. I sometimes wish I was shorter and more petite than I already am. I know it's all in my head, I guess that's the worst part is knowing and still seeing myself this way. Something new I discovered this year was that having a partner helped so much with this issue, especially if they're dominant. So like the only times I find myself feeling small is when I'm in the arms of a lover or wearing something cute and flattering, by flattering I mean minimizing my shoulders. I know eventually I'll get past this though. I think the reason why I feel this way is cause of the weight lifting I used to do and well the obvious one, being exposed to testosterone for so long. My hair, which is big and curly helps cover my shoulders and makes me look smaller. I'm not sure what your hair looks like but if its short try growing it out. Longer hair softens your facial features by a lot.

Hi Lemons

   I've looked at your pictures and you don't look like anything but a woman to me and honestly your hands, feet, shoulders and head don't look to big for a woman in fact I think you pass as good as or better then a lot of girls on this site which is saying something as there are a lot of stunners on here. 

    I was friends with the tallest girl I have ever known (around 6 foot 9 inches) in high school and when you looked at her next to the tallest guy in school she easily dwarfed him as her shoulders were wider and her hands and feet were bigger but not once did she ever come off as anything other then a girl so don't let your size depress you into thinking you could never pass because you can.