I've been doing some deep thinking lately and it made me think about physical and social dysphoria.  For me they are both very prevalent and equally important, but I'm curious how others feel.  So what if you totally pass as female from an appearance standpoint and no longer feel physical dysphoria in this degree but everyone still views you as a man and treats you as one?   What i mean is you have no more discomfort avout your appearance, but you are still a man to everyone? How would you feel?  I kbow some only have physical dysphoria, so id be curious to hear how others would feel.  For me, its equally important.  Im still not in fulltime, so im still getting male pronouns and treated as a man would in social situations.  No one means any harm obviously, other than my family who will not use the pronouns I want, but it really pains me in the same way my physical dysphoria does.  And one of my biggest fears is that i will always be a man to the world no matter what.  And i don't really understand why I need the world to see me as a woman on a social level.  Why it's so important to me on the same level as wanting to pass apearance wise.  In fact, if the world saw me as a woman and inwere treated as such, id probably feel a little less concenred about my appearance, though not totally. Does anyone feel differently?   Just curious to hear other takes on the social and physical dysphoria.

For my part, I could not care less how others see me. Also, I want other people to be real. If they see me as female, great. If they are an unbeliever in transsexualism, I want them to have that too. What I do *not* want is for people to feel the need to put on an act around me.

I did not transition to get approval. I did it so I could be myself, and like myself. It has worked, and the feelings of conflict I used to have are now gone.

My goal was not to 'pass'. My goal was simply to be real.

I want to act, dress, be treated and be seen how I want to be.  Stereotypically speaking, that would be as female.  If all of these things can still apply and people still view me as male, then I'd have to presume we were living in the Twilight Zone, lol.  The Gender Binary is so ingrained in people these days, that I would feel extremely invalidated if for all intents and purposes, mentally, physically, aesthetically, I was female,  and others still viewed me as male.  I don't think it's possible.

BUT, to answer your question, even with me the Gender Binary is pretty ingrained, so I would be extremely unhappy if that were the case.  🙁

LTL, I feel the same. I'm not completely a woman - I'm non-binary gender - but I need people to see me as a woman. The affirmation of other people seems to be something I need, at least at this point.

I think for me, the problem is that I never "felt like a woman" whatever that means. I assumed I was male. Not much has happened internally since them. Externally I look totally different - I now pass as a woman, sound like a woman, dress like a woman, etc., but none of those thing changes my internal gender, which I've always seen as male.

I think I'm probably just as MtF transgender as those women that always knew they were girls since age 3, but because of various factors (cluelessness?) I never thought of myself as female, so I have 50 years of thinking of myself as a man to overcome.

Quote from: Zoetrope on September 24, 2015, 09:48:32 AM
For my part, I could not care less how others see me. Also, I want other people to be real. If they see me as female, great. If they are an unbeliever in transsexualism, I want them to have that too. What I do *not* want is for people to feel the need to put on an act around me.

I did not transition to get approval. I did it so I could be myself, and like myself. It has worked, and the feelings of conflict I used to have are now gone.

My goal was not to 'pass'. My goal was simply to be real.

ditto. Its nice to be thought of as the gender your present as, but my main objective is to heal so I  can have a life without constantly praying to God to relieve me of my pain. The nightmares of breaking down in tremendous pain and waking up crying. HRT stopped those nightmares.

I find your theoretical scenario impossible to comprehend because it didnt happen like that. In fact despite the fact that I have never sounght to conceal my past I sometimes have problems getting people to accept that I genuinely was once kind of male(ish).

I think in your putative scenario I would have found myself so angry at the arrant stupidity of people not seeing what was in front of their eyes that I'd probably have flipped! I might even have become violent constantly screaming "what the F*** is wrong with you zero brained morons that you cant see the obvious truth?" The one thing I would never ever have done was agree with their evaluation. Even if it meant my death I would have tried, with ever increasing levels of effort, and possibly even violence, to find a way to compel them to change their ideas about me.

Oh dear - I've just read that back and I shocked myself with how strongly I really feel about this. Thank God it never happened, or I might have been locked up. Thing is I AM a woman, and I have lived as a woman for all bar two five year periods of my life during one of which I was too young to know the difference anyway, and during the other of which I was proving a point... So I guess thats why I cant wrap my brain around the idea.

It is very important for me to be treated and seen as a woman.

To that end, I take steps to do so, and I am pretty successful with it, I might add.

Nobody who hasn't known me from before ever uses male pronouns now, or my old name, and if they do, they correct themselves or apologize when I correct them.

You are free to live how you live. If someone does not "believe in transsexualism" and chooses to use male pronouns with me, I will remove them from my life. I have no room for them. Plain and simple. But of late that hasn't been an issue. I deal with transphobic people all the time, and all they see, hear and interact with is a woman.

I still have family and "friends" who will never see me as anything other than a man with "weird gender issues".   No matter how much I look, dress or act female, nor how visibly happy I am, I will always likely be a "dude with problems" to them.

There is not a damned thing I can do about that, so I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince them otherwise.  I met disrespect with polite rejection.

I realized I can't pull people's heads out of their asses for them.  They have to do it themselves, and without me in their lives anymore.   

The good news for me was that I was amazed by how many people were able to pull an autorectocranial extraction maneuver and realize that having a happy Jill around was much better than a miserable, dying Greg.

TL;DR - Some people suck no matter what.  Let 'em go.

I'll add that it's not just how they treat me and the fact that it hurts me but the fact that they may intentionally or unintentionally out me by referring to me with male pronouns or as a male. I had enough discomfort dealing with the wrong gender in my life, so I just want to be rid of it, and I completely reject it.

Quote from: learningtolive on September 24, 2015, 09:37:38 AM
So what if you totally pass as female from an appearance standpoint and no longer feel physical dysphoria in this degree but everyone still views you as a man and treats you as one? How would you feel?  For me, its equally important. 

Great question -- this one hits close to home for me because I feel exactly the same way you do, and I'm not sure why either.  My therapist was asking me the other day how I first experienced my gender dysphoria -- if I most wanted to wear what girls were wearing, do what they were doing, etc. -- and I realized that what I'd wanted most of all was for others to recognize, acknowledge, and treat me as one.  Actually being a girl was equally important, of course -- being a boy in appearance while being treated as a girl wouldn't have worked for me either -- but for me the two are inseparable and equally important parts of my feminine identity.

As an aside, this is partially why I put off transitioning for as long as I did.  I went to see a (bad) gender therapist about ten years ago, and one of the first things she told me was that I would never pass as female.  Looking back, she was talking through her hat -- I've seen girls on here who once looked as masculine as I did and have experienced amazing transition results -- but just the idea that I wouldn't be able to attain that acceptance was part of what made me go back in the closet for the next ten years. 

BTW, learningtolive, I'm really sorry to hear that your family is not being supportive of your pronoun choice.  I've read your coming-out story, and it was harrowing even when experienced second-hand.  I think you're really brave to continue being yourself in the face of all that nonsense.  Hugs

Liz

Give me a vagina and breasts, allow me to dress how I will without issue and treat me with some modicum of respect then use either pronoun with me.

Quote from: learningtolive on September 24, 2015, 09:37:38 AM
And i don't really understand why I need the world to see me as a woman on a social level.

I guess it's because humans are supposed to be social animals, so concerns about fit in society are pretty much justified. Also we're educated to fit in, so nurture matters too.

Being saw and treated as a woman is a way of affirmation in spite of what is seen on the mirror. So how you feel about this looks pretty normal to me.

Those of us who don't care about society are not the norm but the exception, we're the "weirdos".

And I'm proud to be a freak

I don't really like sticking out as being an anomaly.

I don't have that much physical dysphoria anymore either.

So the social dysphoria is huge. I guess it's because I've always socialized with and identified with women in women's circles. It's only very recently that I started having any real guy friends, and that's only because we go to the shooting range. However, now I go to the range with women, and I am better friends with them. Go figure.

I also find myself socializing in the women's restroom. It's the weirdest thing. It just happens, people talk to me and I talk back. I have had women compliment my clothing and appearance. Some have asked me for a feminine hygiene product (this is where they don't know my history). But it's all natural and I just do it.

I have had cis women get jealous of me, as in talking about my appearance and how I am radiant and confident. Doesn't bother me. I also get jealous of cis women based on their appearance, or how much attention they get. But I am stepping up my game anyway, and I always do better.

So I guess I'm being seen as a woman and let me tell you, it is absolutely great. I can FINALLY feel comfortable with who I am to a large degree. The only thing that bothers me now is that I don't have reproductive function of either sex.

that would not be acceptable; the whole reason for my transition is to have a female body to match my female gender, and to be accepted and treated as a woman. People may recognize me as being transgender, but I'm ok with that, as long as I am given the respect of being treated the same as any other woman; I think I have earned that right. 

I seem to be going the opposite way. The more physically female I become the less it bothers me presenting male.

I'm not even sure how much presenting male bothered me in the past, everything was so mixed up, but its a lot clearer now. Its kind of like I want to be female and don't much care what anyone else thinks. Its very puzzling.

I like the way Zoe put it. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about passing - I've recognized that in some situations I pass and in others I don't, but what matters is how people are treating me. If people know that I'm trans but still treat me like the woman that I am, then I've got no complaints.

Quote from: estropunk on September 25, 2015, 12:28:44 PM
I like the way Zoe put it. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about passing - I've recognized that in some situations I pass and in others I don't, but what matters is how people are treating me. If people know that I'm trans but still treat me like the woman that I am, then I've got no complaints.

This isn't really about passing. It is about being referred to as a woman, whether or not you pass.

If someone refers to you as a man, would you be comfortable with that? I don't think I would. I would feel pretty darned awful, as if I was not being taken seriously.

At work everybody knows the old me. But they refer to me by the correct name and pronouns now, and everyone treats me like a woman. It costs them nothing and they don't feel less comfortable around me.

Some of the other responses gave me the impression that the conversation had become about passing. Obviously, part of being treated how I expect to be treated means that I'm referred to as a woman. So, no, if someone referred to me as a man, that would of course not be okay.

Quote from: learningtolive on September 24, 2015, 09:37:38 AM
And i don't really understand why I need the world to see me as a woman on a social level.

Why do we, as humans collectively, do 99% of what we do? That's society and culture for you. For me a large part of my dysphoria is social, being seen as male and not accepted as female is like a twisting knife in my heart, so if people viewed me as male I would be extremely distressed. I love having a female body but that was never the primary source of my dysphoria.

Quote from: estropunk on September 25, 2015, 03:43:07 PM
Some of the other responses gave me the impression that the conversation had become about passing.

This isn't a conversation about passing - can folks stay away from that please?

Quote from: Ms Grace on September 25, 2015, 03:54:39 PM
Why do we, as humans collectively, do 99% of what we do? That's society and culture for you. For me a large part of my dysphoria is social, being seen as male and not accepted as female is like a twisting knife in my heart, so if people viewed me as male I would be extremely distressed. I love having a female body but that was never the primary source my dysphoria.

I feel similar yet I'm a bit different. I would say it's about 70-30% social vs body dysphoria.

I really have no desire to glam up all the time everywhere. Im perfectly fine with being an average looking woman, even if I'm an unattractive one (yes I know I am probably not unattractive but I would be 100% fine if I was).

Also body is important but I'm not really into body image that much. I do the basic basic stuff. My biggest asset is my attitude and confidence which is why I addressed my voice first. And I have no regrets for doing so.