Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 06:00:30 PM
for example:
a transguy who responds in typically female ways to things. not necessarily 'survival instincts' like you mentioned. but a guy who despite having perfected his walk, talk, dress, etc is unable to relate to other men as a man. it's not easy to explain. it can't be summed up by 'guys do this, girls do that. kind of thing. it's just when you know their thought processes don't match.
another example:
a transwoman who responds with cold hard facts to an emotional, sensitive discussion. most men aren't even that cold. it's an extremely macho reaction.
For those two I would have to go with socialization. I know, you hate it.
I think, but don't know, that trans-men are sometimes caught in the sme double-bind with "being a guy" that trans-women were caught in prior to transition. I cannot recall a time when I truly enjoyed male companionship in a group, for instance. A sorta 'herd' instinct seemed to take over that lead conversations and reactions in ways that I found totally off-putting. Quit being in places and situations like that by the time I was a year into college. The "EWWW" response.
As far as not relating "to other men as a man" I can't help much with that, not particularly ever having been big on that myself. Although relating to men as human beings hasn't come very hard at all. They hurt, and their wounds often go untended by themselves and others in deference to being able "to be strong." That, imo, is a socialized response. Not from a particular society, I think, as much as from an "entire humanity" perspective. Maybe started when we were all running around looking like "Lucy" --- the australopithecine homonid from the Afar region of Ethiopia -- of 4Mln. years ago.
Hmmm, the second, am I responding with "cold hard facts to an emotional, sensitive discussion?" *smile* That also, in my mind, is a carry-over from the way that person has been raised. Something along the lines of "men don't express emotion, they express rationality." LOL
That just seems to me as though someone is cut off from her own feelings -- that tends to be a cultural/social set of behaviors that is acutely ingrained in guys.
I suppose what I am arguing here is that some traits are biological, but very few, mostly secondary sex characteristics: breasts, vaginas/penises, fatty deposit locations, E/T, bone-structure (generally) and relative size (generally.)
Things like relationality (believe me, I once thought men lacked that essentially) seem to me now to be deeply ingrained socialization qualities that could be available to all humans if they were allowed to indulge in them.
Essentially speaking (metaphysically?), I tend to lean more and more toward the idea that there are no 'essential' differences, just the superficial chemical/biological ones I mentioned above and the social ones I mentioned also above.
(In the E/T differences, women may be a bit more disposed toward relationality by dint of estrogen: such qualities as nurturing and gathering for safety seem to have some relation to estrogen, depending on the 'danger' that threatens. Just as T seems to tilt the individual balance more toward 'action.' Men tend to be more aggressive in response to a threat not directed necessarily toward young humans.)
Fact is, these are things that seem more than a bit tricky to winnow down to whole grain, Nero. We have ideas, and in some ways can back-up those with 'scientific evidence' and moreso through individual experience. My own feeling is that we (women) are less cold. The whys for that I want to believe are mostly conditioned, but the tilt toward them may be biological/chemical and in that respect 'essential.'
But, how in the world to show that?
I really hope this an intellectual discussion!!! I keep reading your questions and answers in that light. If it is a 'sensitive, emotional discussion' except in regard to someone maybe feeling he or she is being dissed, then I am going to have to rethink and re-experience this whole thing!!! Goddess, and I thought I was making some sense out of it!!! hahahahaha At least for myself.
