I have a specific question regarding bathroom usage at jobs that allegedly isn't supposed to discriminate against LGBT individuals.
Let's say that you're an fTM who have already got your gender marker corrected to M on your official documents BUT you don't really look like what a guy is supposed to look like in binary terms. Do you, or rather... CAN YOU still use the mens bathrooms without it being an issue?  I mean, would you still be questioned by other people such as co-workers or even the people above and then you would have to "prove" to them with the documentation?

I know I am analyzing these things way too much and even creating negative scenarios that are even giving me panic attack symptoms as I type this but it's really difficult to be confident or even be able to pick up my lost courage as identifying myself as male (the way I see fit as states in my signature) when my mom keeps seriously questioning me by saying things such as :

"Where do you plan on going when you need to use the bathroom?"
"Are you not going to have any issues with them?"
"Have you ever tried to go into the mens with a bunch of people inside?"
(When I answered that yes, I have:) "Didn't they look at you"
I make NO EYE CONTACT whatsoever anywhere let alone the bathrooms because I know people generally do talk about me but it's things like this that really gets me down.

I could list a bunch of things she said to me to make me feel the lowest of the low but I don't want to go there at the moment.
Here I am specifically wondering if anyone who doesn't really "pass" as male BUT has already have their documentations corrected to M have experienced issues like this?

(By the way, I have no intention to come out to anyone especially using the word "trans". )

I know you guys keep saying that guys don't usually look at you but I don't think this applies to nonbinary people all that much

Nobody's going to ask you for identification, or at least, that'd be very strange from my experiences. All I've ever had is someone saying "uh, that's the guy's toilet" as I headed in, and all I needed to do was nod and say "I know; I'm a guy." That's really the most that I could easily imagine happening, unless you live in a really 'conservative' area.

Quote from: makipu on September 24, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
I know you guys keep saying that guys don't usually look at you but I don't think this applies to nonbinary people all that much

The other guys in the restroom won't be lookin' at you, I promise. We go in to have a pee, wash up (hopefully), maybe fix hair if we're feeling self-conscious, but unless two guys happened to be chatting as they headed into the toilets, nobody's going to be seeking out interactions in there. I'm not sure what nonbinary toilet protocols are, but it'd be a very atypical guy's toilet for there to be much looking going on. Worst to worst, your ID says male, but as I said I wouldn't anticipate that being an issue.

FWIW, my grandmother asked me pretty similar questions when I came out. And I pass pretty well, even when I was pre-testosterone. "You still use the women's room, right?" No. "Why not? You're a woman, aren't you?" No, I'm a man. That's what I've been telling you. "Yeah, but what if there's people in there?" It's difficult to be confident when people question you like that, and it sucks because it's a good indicator of how the person in question views you (my grandmother has since come along quite a bit, thankfully), but asking those questions doesn't mean you can't use the men's toilets. More power to you.

--viam

if anything, it's worse to go into the women's bathroom when a little girl is in there. they stare at you and then look at their mom to ask why a boy is in there... i had that so many times growing up and it was extremely difficult to cope with, at the time, but now i laugh at it.

stick to the men's room. guys don't care, where as most women look at each other.

Agree with palexander. If you look masculine or androgynous, it is safer to use the men's.

I've used the men's ever since I came out socially. I passed about 50% of the time pre-T. But there are a lot of tiny details that would easily give me away or make someone pause if they were very observant (hands/feet, lack of adam's apple, face shape, body shape, etc.). It gave me a lot of anxiety to use the men's a lot of the time. Often if I walked in and saw people in there, I would just wash my hands or glance in a mirror to fix my hair (which is a joke since my head is shaved) and walk back out. Now it's not an issue for me.

For the record, I have never been harassed in or around a bathroom. I've only been looked at or spoken to once, and that was because I was waiting for the only stall and he wanted to know if there was a line. But I have a very "grey man" philosophy about how I look and act in public. I want to blend in and go unnoticed.

What I've found that helped me have less anxiety in public is wearing headphones. Sometimes I'll have music playing really low, or sometimes nothing. You want to be able to hear everything, but you want it to look like you can't. People are much less likely to say something to you or yell at you if they think it will not get a reaction. And if someone does feel inclined to try to speak to you, just keep on walking - you can't hear them. The key is maintaining situational awareness while at the same time having no reaction to the people around you unless you're in danger.

Guys do indeed tend to ignore each other in the men's room. In my opinion, this is due to the internalised homophobia that most of them grew up with: they've been taught that it's 'gay' to look at another guy when he has his private parts out, so they learn to keep their eyes averted and they tend to ignore each other. Except, of course, in gay bars.

When it comes to jobs that aren't supposed to discriminate against LGBT people, talk to HR beforehand & make sure you have their full support. Then if anyone challenges you, just refer (or report) them to HR. As for the legality of it? Well, that depends on the laws where you are. If there's no specific law to prevent you from using the men's, then confidence is key: just march in there like you belong (because you do!), do your business, wash your hands & stride on out. If you don't feel confident, fake it until you make it. If you're challenged by anyone official, just ask to speak to them privately & whip out your ID. It's nobody's business why you might look androgynous.

I used the men's room for more than a year before I passed. I was never challenged, because guys know they're not supposed to look at each other... but I did feel uncomfortable the whole time. I was constantly nervous about the possibility that someone might challenge my right to be there, and I felt that until my voice dropped I couldn't really argue back. I got a 'carry letter' from my GIC, but as I was never actually challenged I never actually used it. It did make me feel more confident though. There were a few times when I used the men's with my male colleagues who knew me before transition, and I'll admit that felt rather awkward for me. All I can advise is to just remind yourself that you have every right to use the appropriate facility. And remind yourself that pre-teen and teenage boys also use the men's... and they often look & sound androgynous too.

It also sounds to me like your mother is speaking from the perspective of someone who has only ever used the ladies'. I'm sure we all know from experience that women tend to check each other out in the ladies' room (mostly in an attempt to boost their own ego, IMO); she has no idea that it's very different in the men's. A guy who checks out other men in the way that the ladies do is likely to get himself into a whole heap of trouble. There are loads of websites listing the 'unwritten' rules of the men's room: why not google 'men's room etiquette' and when you find a source you like, show it to your mother? It might help her to see how the men's room works from a variety of perspectives, including the perspective of the guys who've used the place their entire lives.

Sorry to be such a bother about this whole thing but to tell the truth, I have no one in real life to talk about my troubles and it's been causing me anxiety because unfortunately not all places have unisex/handicapped restrooms (which is what I would still prefer even if I was born cis too)

Palexander and Ftmax, so you're saying that even though I don't look like a (typical) guy, it's still safer to use the mens? I personally think I look androgynous but it depends on the person on how they see me.

I also think that using headphones is a great idea. In fact, I do this when I am walking in public areas most of the time. But you know my main anxiety comes from if they physically touch me to get my attention. Is that also what you mean by danger?

By the way, it's kind of ironic because just doing my business andnot  looking at /talking to anyone was precisely what I used to do in the womens bathroom. I wasn't even comfortable looking at myself in the mirror when they were there near me, all looking at me like my presence is any of their business, because I was that uncomfortable! Sometimes I wouldn't even wait until my hands were dried and I just used my pants. I hated being in their presence since high school (before I knew what trans was)

Also, I was searching through different links  about the mens room etiquette and I have to say I am really surprised at the whole thing. I also saw a couple of Youtube videos and it's quite funny. I am wondering if everything listed is true.  Are these 'rules' the same all over the world? 

I have to laugh at some of the more common men's room "etiquette". If there is more than one stall, one does not use the one beside the occupied one unless there's only 3 and the middle one is occupied. Beats the hell out of me why, but that is very common. Men do not check each other out. It just isn't "done".

Since I transitioned, I'm glad I don't have to be that way any more although I don't make eye contact with the other ladies if I can avoid it.

The whole men's room etiquette thing is kind of overhyped.  In a public setting with strangers there is generally no speaking but in a work setting where people know each other then speaking may be more common and people often greet one another.  The same goes with eye contact. 

The only more or less universal rule is not to look at someone else's crotch.  Everything else is variable.

People usually won't loiter longer than necessary simply because the odor inside is less than pleasing.  LOL


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Quote from: makipu on September 29, 2015, 09:55:10 PM
Palexander and Ftmax, so you're saying that even though I don't look like a (typical) guy, it's still safer to use the mens? I personally think I look androgynous but it depends on the person on how they see me.

I also think that using headphones is a great idea. In fact, I do this when I am walking in public areas most of the time. But you know my main anxiety comes from if they physically touch me to get my attention. Is that also what you mean by danger?

Yeah, I'd say if you're in a position where someone could view you as male, it is safer to use the men's. I've never seen guys care if someone is in the wrong bathroom. Women are much more likely to be concerned if they perceive you as male. So even if you don't think you pass, I'd err on the side of not getting security called on you.

Normal people's default reaction to us is not physical violence. At most, you'll get some jerk who wants to make a comment in the settings that you're talking about. Easily ignored and moved on from.

And yes! I at least like to feign not being able to hear people in public. I'm also guilty of faking phone conversations to get out of uncomfortable situations. I've never had anyone try to touch me, but that is what I mean by danger. In a restroom setting, there is absolutely no reason for someone to be in your personal space. Really on the street as well, unless the sidewalk is too thin. If someone gives you a bad vibe or gets closer to you than you'd like, remove yourself from the situation.

Ok, I was trying to be  confident (as much as I could) keeping the encouragement you guys gave me in my mind while going in the mens just recently and I had a serious readiness to defend myself if anyone said something but what happened was...
I was at a store and when I went, no one was there. I finished and went to wash my hands and then a guy opened the door and ...
not exactly came in... He just stood there for about 5 seconds looking at me and closed the door and I exited right after him. There was a woman outside who he was with and I am sure they talked about me being in the 'wrong' bathroom but I quickly left that area because I didn't want to hear it.
What do you think of this kind of not passing?  At least I wasn't the one who got THAT uncomfortable. 

Quote from: makipu on September 30, 2015, 08:57:32 PM
What do you think of this kind of not passing?  At least I wasn't the one who got THAT uncomfortable.

It doesn't bother me. I have very little concern for other people's comfort in general and especially if I'm doing nothing wrong. If someone doesn't want to use the bathroom because they think I'm in the wrong place, that's their business. If they want to spend their time discussing it with friends, that's their choice. It has no effect on me.

The only situation I would take issue with is if someone tried to stop me from using a bathroom. I have no problem asserting myself, but the best form of self defense is avoiding situations where you need to defend yourself. So it would really depend on the vibe I got from the other person and who else was around.

I think you did everything right in that situation. You did your thing, didn't get freaked out, and left all without having to engage this dude in any kind of interaction. That is exactly what bathroom use should boil down to.

I mean honestly I have seen feminine looking guys in the men's and they did not seem out of place one bit. I haven't been in a men's restroom in a while though.

Guys talking to you is typically minimal but it is usually by the urinals and/or sinks. There is definitely not the level of socialization there is in the ladies. I have had strangers strike up conversations with me in the ladies. In the men's not even my close colleagues would say anything beyond "hey" or "whats up." Then they just do their thing and leave.

Quote from: makipu on September 30, 2015, 08:57:32 PM

What do you think of this kind of not passing?  At least I wasn't the one who got THAT uncomfortable.

The only thing I can advise is working on a "bro nod" and just like, bro nod at the dude and ingnore the other people who say "wrong bathroom!" 

How kindergarten are we?  Just seriously, even in the event that a female identified person uses the Men's room, it's their/her choice anyways.  When it comes to BR politics the idea is keeping the aggressive factors away from women.  Guys, in my experience tend not to care if a gal does use the men's room.  Even way pre coming out me, my sister and my mom would use the single locking men's room if the women's was taken :/  As far as I can tell, it's kind of a one way street and most men will not flap and fuss about it, they just might give you a deer in the headlights- which I have gotten a few times too!

don't think about it too much.

if it makes you feel any better, i had a pretty funny incident happen when i was a kid. i'd say i was 10 years old and my family was traveling back from a trip to the lake. we stopped at mcdonalds to go to the bathroom and after exiting the (womens) bathroom a macho biker guy nodded at me and walked straight into the women's bathroom..... one of the greatest moments of my life lol

At least that made me smile Palexander as I tend spontaneously visualize things and that did sound nice:)

I learned about the "bro nod" more specifically here in the forums because I remember my brother doing that all the time instead of saying hi back to me and I thought it was kind of annoying but I guess it really was a thing. 
With me though, it doesn't seem to be a suitable action because it would obviously require eye contact that I avoid at all times especially in the bathrooms.

If you are legally a male, then you can use the men's bathroom anywhere you like. It doesn't matter what you look like. I can't imagine someone going up to you and saying that you don't look right, get out. Having done a lot of on the road travel and having been in hundreds of guys bathrooms, I've never looked at anyone  and they have never looked at me.

Just use the stall instead of the urinal If you don't have a successful hookup. I've always used the stall. Even if you have the hookup and are at a urinal, another guy checking out your junk would be grounds for him being labled gay. Guys usually purposely try not to look and stand close to the urinals. I used to worry about it, but not anymore. I wouldn't stress out over it. Gender isn't something that is going to be questioned under those circumstances.

sam1234