I was inferring that it was possible that the documents in question could recount less than accurate events.

Note that I am not saying the documents are anything other than what they are thought to be.

Though I've said a few times that I long for impartial reporters' view of Jesus as son of God, in truth, when someone makes such a claim, there is no way any reporter could prove or disprove it.

The best way to prove to myself would be for me to be there and experience it.

Let's say I was standing nearby as Jesus was being killed, The first thing is that I'm going to be disgusted and terribly sad that a kind and caring person is being killed in a barbaric manner.  The one thing I can't tell by standing there are what Jesus' motivations were about anything.  I know from being around him, listening to him talk, that he's a good person.  And now, I hear him telling me and others that he's dying for us but to believe that requires me to believe he's actually the son of God.  How does one believe something so amazing?  People lie.  Why not this man?  I wish I could tell.

Even being there is no proof.

Teri Anne

hello!
  I just want to say thanks for all the posts people have been posting it has been a great plesure to read them and think about what they had to say.
  Cassandra I want to say thanks for bringing the point across clear that Christ did die on the cross and that it has been accepted as common truth. Also rana thank you for clearify that the bible does say christ was perfect. I apologize for any mis-conseptions I may have wrote. I meant to say that many people challanged him but could find no fault in him. (according to the gospels)
  Teri Anne about you quest for another impartial historian I would recomend the writtings of Josephus. Though if you deciede to look into it I have heard that there has been some christian mis interperation going around what he wrote but many scholars have accurently corrected his writtings, just be aware of the book you choose. I"m currently skimming through a book called "Josephus and the New Testament" by Steve Mason and it seems pretty good. Chances are he won't offer you all you want to know but he can help you gain a better understanding of The New Testament Times.
  Another thing about the oustide reporters would be that Romans did not really care what happened in Palistine. Your chances of finding a solid Roman Historian will be pretty low. Josephus was a Jewish Historian who I believe if i'm correct was Post-Christ's life yet Christ is mentioned in some of his writings.
  Some other suggested readings would be the book of Luke in the NT because it is seen by scholars as a Historical Narative or you could get some readings on Apologetics (logical arguments of the NT)
  You say also that Christ could have lied yet he was  good guy. C.S. Lewis wrote this "Christ is either a nut job or the son of God he can not just be a nice guy" His reasoning is he said he was the son of God and his teachings are very radical for their time. If possible think about this quote I would love to hear how you veiw Christ. Thanks!
I hope this helps you find some of the answers you are looking for. As I said earlier keep looking for answers and i'm sure your going to find something.
God bless
James

Quote from: Cassandra on January 24, 2006, 04:49:56 AM
Historians and archeologists are quite satisfied with the validity of the record. Crucifixion was quite common with the Romans. There would be little reason to "doctor the records of a crucifixion of a (to the Romans) minor player in Judea. The Curcifixion of Christ is a fact. That he never recantd his position is a fact. The point is would anyone go through that willingly.

It was couple several hundred years after the fact that Rome adopted Christianity and established the papacy. Doctoring the record at that point would have been found out by archeologists evne if it occured a hundred years later. The documents are genuine. Unless you want to make the claim that someone doctored them at the time they were written. If so who and for what reason? People claiming to be messias were all over Judea. Why doctor the record on this one?

No other self proclaimed messias were crucified. Why this one? Because he was a greater threat to the political establishment than anyone who had come before. It was a political hot potatoe. Pilot had to maintain control of the situation and so took extreme measures to show the folks in Rome that he was a capable governor. Like any politician he had political enemies and there was a lot of correspondence on the matter. There is little reason to question the historical record on the basic facts.

Cassie

Pilate got off to a bad start in Judea.

First, he marched into Jerusalem with totem of Tiberius Caesar.  Caesar, considered a god by the Romans, desecrated the city.  Caiaphas, who was was used to having the ear of the Roman Gevernour, complained to Caesar.  Caesar told Pilate to tred more carefully, or there would be consequences.

Second, he used public monies to build Roman bath houses for the people of the city, not just Romans.  Caiaphas complained again to Caesar, saying that the funds were for the Temple and, thus, was desicrated ... again.  Caesar told Pilate that if there was ANY more trouble, Pilate would pay for it with his life, as well as the lives of his family.  (Typical sentence for a failed governorship.)

When Jesus was brought before Pilate, the records show that Caiaphas wanted him crucified.  At this point, there was the implied - and very real - threat of execution by Caesar if there was a riot.  Truely, Pilate was backed into a corner.  He had to execute Jesus to save himself and his family.

From what I have researched, it was the Syrian soldiers that had enlisted in the Roman Army that did the scourging, not the Roman soldiers.  Mel Gibson did his research and his movie seems to be an accurate protrayal of the Crucifixion.  Also, records indicate that they were Syrian soldiers outside the tomb, not Roman soldiers.

Regardless of the records, and the Romans were meticulus record keepers, we can not prove or disprove the existance of the Almighty.  It comes down to a matter of faith....

Faith in the stories people tell of how God has affected their lfe, both past and present.

Faith in how people have been transformed.  Not through some human-made institution such as a church.  Rather, how their core-belifs - their moral compass, if you will - has been altered for the better.

I know that the Almighty is.  I have seen God's great works.

Chaunte

Pilate. Thank you Chaunte. I didn't think Pilot was correct but I had no idea what might be.

Does it really come down to faith though?

I don't have faith what most call heaven exists, I remember it. Hrm. I think I am going to shut up now.

Right now it really does not matter who or what you believe in or even if you do..

One of our members, Terri, needs all the support you can give.

Talk, worship, pray, beg if you have to, to whatever power there is that Terri comes back to her wife, to her life and to us.

Leigh, yes -- we should all hope and pray for the best for Terri-Gene.  As if her road transitioning isn't hard enough, I recall her mentioning some of the health problems she's faced.  In the short time I've been in Susan's, I've looked forwards to her posts.  May she have a quick and painless recovery.

Teri Anne

Hi Teri Anne,

  Thanks for starting this thread.  I've been following it since the beginning.    Just wanted to address one subtopic for now:

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 24, 2006, 05:01:37 AM
As I've said, I DO believe someone named Jesus lived and he died on the cross.  So, Roman records of his death are good but don't get to the heart of the matter:  Was he REALLY THE son of God? 

Ah, the question with the potentially priceless answer.  It gets into what some call the "Trilemma" and it is framed by the quote jamesBrine was looking for by C.S. Lewis: "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.  But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher.  He has not left that open to us."  Considering Jesus claimed to be God (not just the "son" of God, as we are "children of God", but "one with God", the Christ, the promised Messiah/Savior, I AM [that is, Yahweh or YHWH, the name God gave when Moses asked for His name, so revered by Jews that they would not speak it] (I found http://www.probe.org/content/view/90/77/ for more background on his claims), he was either insane, it was a hoax (i.e. he was a liar), or he actually was God. 

He could have been a liar. Cassie pointed out it would have made more sense for him to recant rather than die; you pointed out he could have accepted death for achieving the benefits of martyrdom.  Always possible, although if not to bring good news and salvation, it is tough to ascertain what exactly his objectives were.  It is hard to believe it was a hoax for the sake of the hoax, considering his teachings.  It is probably more reasonable to think he was trying to change Jewish culture for "the better", although most of his teachings were too radical to really be considered part of the Jewish culture (one reason why they hated him) and arguably for most of his teachings to have any real merit, he sort of had to fulfill the part about him being God ("I am the bread of life", "I am the living water", "I am the way, the truth, and the life", "I am the true vine" [i.e. giver of life], his true followers must "take up your cross and follow me", he told a rich man that to inherit eternal life he should give up all his possessions to the poor and follow him...etc, etc).  It is also tough to understand what "bettering" Israel would have accomplished since it was under Roman occupation at the time (and he apparently didn't care much for overthrowing them.)

He could have been insane.  Considering the teachings attributed to him though, it can be tough to believe that he was insane about his being deity and yet produced lucid and profound teachings that people are actually inspired by to this day.  But yes, possible that he could have convinced himself and everyone around him.  I tend to like the possibility of insanity more than the possibility of his being a liar.

To go back to what you said though, you said you believe someone named Jesus lived and died on a cross.  I'd like to acknowledge that the story doesn't stop there.  Lying about being God or actually believing that you're God is one thing, but actually rising from the dead is another.  There is no doubt in my mind that this man Jesus died.  Crucifixion in itself is bad enough, but Romans made sure people died by breaking their legs if they didn't die quickly enough (so they would suffocate).  Apparently, Jesus didn't have his legs broken because he had already died (though he did get a spear through his side anyway.)  So, he died and was buried, as the story goes, in a tomb.  As Wendy already pointed out:

Quote from: Wendy on January 08, 2006, 11:50:03 PM
If you recall the tomb of Jesus was guarded by a squad of Roman soldiers and the stone in front of the tomb would take 10 strong men to move.  In the days of the Romans any soldier that left his post would be put to death.  A Romain soldier would die before leaving his post.  Somehow Jesus got out of the tomb.

I think it would be tough to argue that Jesus' tomb wasn't empty and the stone wasn't rolled away.  Who the heck would even say that when any fool could see the stone was still there, or people could prove a body was in there by opening up the tomb?  There's also the question of how any of Jesus' followers would have gotten past the guard.  Then, the account of women being the first to see him:  if you were making something up, that's not a smart move - women weren't considered valid eyewitnesses in the Jewish culture.  I suppose the sticking point here though is who believed afterward and what happened to them.  Jesus' disciples and even his family believed they saw him resurrected and believed at that point He was God and started to really understand why he had come to earth.  They then went on to proclaim this belief to the death (Peter was crucified upside-down, his brother James was stoned to death, to name a few).  It is hard to believe Jesus' disciples or his family would believe this unless he actually did appear to them (multiple times, apparently), or that they would willingly die for a lie when Jesus' martyrdom in itself could have been sufficient, as you pointed out.  Yes, maybe they were all part of one heck of an elaborate hoax.  But a hoax isn't fun when you're not around to enjoy it and dying for a hoax when you have no real plan for life after death isn't too logical.  It also seems unlikely that they were all just collectively insane.  Also... your family?  The people who saw you with snot coming out of your nose as a kid?  If you think it's hard to get your family to accept you, try telling them that you're God and that if they believe in you, they will have eternal life.  Yet this is what they believed - James even calls himself the bond-servant of Jesus, his brother. 

Phew, I wrote more than I intended.  I should caveat that I do not intend to "convince you" of anything but hope that these thoughts will be usable to you in your search for God (or lack thereof).  I also don't think my reasoning is 'bulletproof' and look forward to further discussion.

All the best,
Joseph

Teri Anne, the questions you raise are valid, why would you believe that the man on that cross was not the son of God? The reason I believe he is is because of what he did all his life. Not once did he lie, cheat, or steal. Even with his dying breath through all the pain he must have been feeling, he asked god to forgive us all for our stupid and ignorant act.

My belief started when I was a child. I always felt that something was there, that something was protecting me and trying to guide me. Not to sure if I really have ever let that spirit guide me, but I know it keeps trying. In fact, without my belief I would be quite dead right now as it is my faith that has kept me from taking my own life, for years now.

The question isn't if god exists, but if you can let yourself find him. I have felt that if God truly gave us free-will, then he must hide himself behind the curtin to allow us to continue with this god-given right. For how can we NOT believe in God if we know without a doubt that he exists, and that would destroy the concept of faith. For faith isn't the lack of doubt, but the continuation of belief regardless of our own dobt.

I will finish this up with the statement that I believe in both God AND science. Why? Because if God made the universe, he made science. There are just to many coincidences for me to believe that random chance made our world. In fact, if you look to close, all the rules we assume matter has to obay breaks down, so who is holding it together?

You ask how can I believe, I ask how can you not?

Look at it this way.

You're the head of your class, and around you are folks who just don't get it. Too caught up in their mundane daily lives.  You want to help your fellows yet when you teach they ignore your words at best. It's frustrating, so what does one do?  You get their attention, you make them awe. At least SOME of them will pay attention then.

If I take a word, lets say, Tree.

Everyone has a general idea what a tree is and everyone nods their head, "Ah! Yes, a tree, I know what that is"

Now I ask 10 people to draw one.  I'm going to get 10 different pictures, in some cases, very different.

A spiritual journey is all about the details and the colors in your picture, and it is a personal one that has personal meaning.  We can discuss our pictures with one another, but no two pictures will ever entirely agree, and sometimes, we ourselves don't even know why.  Even if two of us draw oaks, they will still be very different in the details.

I think spirituality parallels that very much.
No two people believe exactly the same way.

Even within a certain religion which is a common set of spiritual beliefs (you both draw a water oak).
There will be differences in individual beliefs and what those beliefs mean to you. (you won't draw the exact same water oak).

With that said, just like the meanings and visualization of different words is a very personal thing, so is spirituality.

Now, to me, religion, tries to make all of it's members draw the exact same picture.  It tries to get you to conform to someone else's picture and says, "This is the right picture."  It takes the individuality out of spirituality.  It says, "All of this is right", "All of this is wrong", "This is what happens after death", "These are the things that you should do", etc... Religion, in essense, tells you, "this is what you should paint."

I am very spiritual, I am not religious.

The Question of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud With Dr. Armand Nicholi

Ck out your local PBS station for details and air time.

Thank you all for your input and viewpoints.  Jessica, I agree with your viewpoint that different people SEE things in different ways.  When beginning detectives go to crime classes, one of the tests is having an actor come into the classroom, steal something, and quickly exit.  The teacher then polls the students, asking for a description of the criminal.  Unfortunately, there often is no agreement among the students' descriptions.  The lesson:  Eyewitness accounts are not necessarily the most reliable proof for proving someone guilty.  In fact, many have been sent to jail erroneously because of incorrect eyewitness reports.  DNA later clears them.

Because of this distrust of "witnesses," I will probably always be suspicious of stories in the bible.  Like you, Jessica, I guess this makes me "spiritual" but not "religious."  At least, so far...

Teri Anne

i have a wierd and strange way of thinking, i think anything is possivble, that humans can do magic, and things can live forever and that the world can be so much more.... i believe in Jesus and all but i believe we have been created with the possibility to do anything, we just have to figure it all out, my reasoning is that i am just lucky.... 2 lucky..... and i can say things.... and it will happen..... awkward.

now as for prayer i believe that we are unexperienced, and when we pray we say what we think will solve the problem instead of just stating the problem and asking for it to be handeled in the way best, for we may think we know the solution and pray for the solution, when we dont know the solution, so i think if we prayed right, we would get more,

I also believe in evolution as caused by us, that in are minds we know what we need to be and it takes a long time for us all to become such for we dont understand the ways....

Just like we have a GOD, i believe we are somewhat of the same compared to plants but we still have someone over us watching us.
I also believe in karma and all....
I also see that the way to figure out certain things you got to have a good additude and know its possible....

like if you want to be a singer, you got to have a good additude and know its possible,
your mind has to know its possible and accept it to what i believe to the point of ability much better than just what we believe were limited 2.....

i believe we should only pray on what we cant do,
and like i say, just state the situation and ask for whatever is the best solution instead of asking for what you think is the solution to happen....
i know this has nothing to do with the topic and im young but i got alot of opinions. i dont read much so i dont know alot but thats what i think from what i know....

oh and also,
all problems eventually pass,
all arguements will eventually pass,
So why argue?

I know im crazy.... lock me up, lol im still learning im still in my teens.

i also believe stories in the bible may not be real and my not be meant to be real but instead be meant to teach us lessons from the stories.... so that they may be fiction, but it still teaches lessons.... i do believe some things are real though in it.

i know i contradict myself and i should probly do some research but hey thats they way i see it now....

since on my account it wont let me send anything to the billions of people who have contacted me about this last reply of mine id like to say, i did read all of yours, and i really cant respond on here since you wanted it private.... so anyway im not trying to ignore you... bye

I think you can reply after a couple more posts.

Melissa

For me everything i know is from my life experience. In that experience i have been taught about all kinds of people and jesus was one of them. I like what i was told about jesus. i don't believe everything i was told or that i have read.
I have had experiences where i did something and later wished i didn't. It was like i had a spirit telling me not to do something. Some of the things werebad and so i did them and suffered the consequences. Other things i was told not to do and well i did them and suffered the consequences. I soon started listening to this voicewithin. I knew i had my ego and a choice to do some things that were good but not what i was told. I still suffered. I eventually started to do everything the voices told me to do. From that point on i never had any major isues. Yes i had simple life issues. When i get away from being constant with listening to the voicewithin / not my ego i get caught up in life and i usually end up suffering one way or another. It is like this voice knows better for me than i know for myself.
  The issue is i have to be constantly conscience of this conscieness. When i talk about this consciencness it seems the spirits above or guardians like it. They kinda reward me with me being able to know things and not have any problems. I am not a religous person, but i am a spiritual person. I believe jesus wanted us to get that personal connection to above. Jesus wanted us to know that we could only get that personal connection to above by going the same way jesus did. I feel that many of the things jesus said was distorted by those who were with him and they were made more closly aligned to religous like sayings.

here is a post i wrote recently:::

I am Danielle/ only the image of God / Above



I am a Jesus following Christian. I judge no one and worry not what others say about me. My life is guided by Jesus and others who have walked the walk in their earthly life. I have come to the realization that like God I am created in Gods image. My spirit has always been and always will be. My time here on earth started as a baby and slowly over time I came to realize through the actions of Jesus and how he was a rebel of his time here on earth that I too must not go along with the teachers of earth but I must be guided by my connection to above. I know that I have one foot in this world and one foot in the next. I offer up my body / shell to help those who started great works here on earth or who have unfinished business here on earth so that I may do their work. I do not live by faith as I use to but I live by my connection to the next world. Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return. My time here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of my spiritual existence. I do not do my will but thy will above be done. I hear without my ears. I see without my eyes. I knew as a child that when I had dejavues that they were revelations of previous lives. I know that the king James bible didn't allow these teachings of being reborn in many earthly bodies to be included into the bible so that they could use the threat of only having one life to get it right before we die. I know that those dejavues were also telling me that when I was a spirit before I entered this body I wanted to know from whence I came to this world so that I didn't get caught up in all the things of the world. However, in a way I do have only one life but many bodies. My one life is my one spirit that lives on forever. I ride the surfboard of life and I am taken on many waves as I let my ego go and let above be my guide. In closing I know that I am the one who needs to listen to my words as they are meant for me. If they speak to another then so be it. Then I am just a vehicle for above and above uses me to reach others. But it is not the me the go the human body that is written here it is the angels above who get all the credit when anything I say speaks to another or when anything another says speaks to me as they are the open non ego vehicle relating Gods message to me. I know more will be revealed. I know that my blood family are only individual spirits ad that I must not think of them as being any more important than those who die everyday around the world. This is where Jesus says we must deny our family. We must follow in the ways of above. I know when Jesus spoke he too was speaking to above and if anyone heard then they had the ability to hear without ears. The words that are recorded of the life of Jesus does speak to me. So as Jesus did I to follow after him and surrender my soul and my earthly wants and desires to above so that I do the fathers will.

My earthly life has had many transitions. I had to come from a broken family being the middle child of 7 and even being the middle child of 11 because 4 siblings of my earthly mother did die at birth. I had to transcend drug addiction. I had to transcend gender identity. I had to give up all $$ and power and control to above and let above feed me and cloth me as above does to the birds of the sky and the flowers of the fields.

I worry not for all things here on earth. I know I can't control or shouldn't try to change another or anything. However, I also know that I am not to use or abuse any of Gods creations. I know that if I am attacked I should simple turn the cheek and worry not for death of the body. As written in the book of Mormon there was a civilization that buried their swords in the sand. The invading armies attacked but soon realized the people wouldn't fight back. Thousands were killed but most survived due to following the turn the cheek principle. If they hadn't the whole group of them would have been destroyed. I do not promote any religion. I am just open to when that which speaks to me and so I use many good things of many religions and I naturally reject many bad things of many religions. Religions are of man. My personal connection to above is from above. I know that I don't know it all and this leaves me open to more.

I love Jesus Christ and my grandmother who passed and my mother who is still in body form but it is really the spirit of these and others that I love and that help to guide my earthly life. It is the spirit that I see in others. The outer shell is just that. Don't judge a book by its cover and don't ever judge another because it is up to us to constantly judge ourselves by the riches in our hearts which are not due to doing anything for others but it is the constant surrender to above. I guess this constant surrender is a kinda faith but for myself there is no doubt. When I give anything it is for me not for them. When I pray for another it is for me not for them. Anything I say or do is for me and I am the one who must hear and see. Yes, it might be nice to help others but it is really only a superficial ego thing. Jesus says let the right hand not know what the left hand is doing. In saying this I hear that anything I do for another means nothing or is as dirty rags in the sense that my main and only concern is for my true spiritual growth and openness to learning more from above.

Yes, I have had many transitions. Yes, many times it was a stepping stone understanding. yes mankind has always let me down but above has always walked with me. Yes, in the beginning I boasted of things I did seeking earthly acceptance but over time I realized that yes my treasure is in heaven but what is even more important to me than to get treasure in heaven is to serve those below and let me thought of as crazy Danielle who gives away all she has as she trust in above for her daily needs. Yes, you can't always get what you want. you can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime. you just might find. You get what you need ohhh yeah... And also as the other group sung the song money can't buy you love can't buy you loveeeeeeeeeeeee ... Love from above is eternal... Earthly love is just that. So above has allowed me to stay celibate and single and be in total love to above.. That has been at times my hardest surrender.. I have had $$ and power etc etc etc but I have never had true intimate love of another human.. I have had and always have true love from above.. this has taken me past mental illness and past lust and past being lonely and past all superficial things of the world...

When my shell writes it is not me the go me the me know as Danielle it is the spirits above using me to and taking over control of my earthly shell to be able to complete good works so that maybe others come to understand the stepping stones of life that can bring them to an understanding that is themselves. It is better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you are not...

My life is mine. Your life is yours. We all have our own path.. Yours is yours and mine mine.. What you do is for you and what I do is for me. No one is worse than another.. be yea a murderer etc etc etc you are in your path and time and transitions and lives will bring you eventually to the place where you have transcended all things here on earth, so I judge yea not. I forgive yea not. Forgiveness is for you to forgive yourself,,, loving yourself is for yourself.. To thy own self be true but if being true to self is giving up your earthly self then so be it..

Dearest Lord above I give my life to you.. I serve you and all who need my earthly body to fulfill good works here on earth. May I not have an ego and think in any way that I am anymore than another. May I refute blood family and know that we are all spirits and to give credence to earthly things only distracts us from the eventual truth of our spirits. I pray for my spirit to live in constant surrender so that I may come to know more and grow and do more of they will. I thank the Lord for allowing me to only compare myself to myself and to be able to forgive myself and thusly lose my self and know that I am just spirit with one foot in this world and one in the next. When you reveal more to me so be it. Until then i hear without my ears and i see without my eyes.
   bye love Danielle

The above post was written about 10 days ago. I don't constantly follow what i write as i am human but when i do stay connected to above i seem to be pushed further away from humans but i find greater acceptence from above.. The last few days i have let myself get swayed by earthly thoughts. It happens and then within 3 days i go back to where i was from and even grow more. Its like 3 steps forward and one step back. I use to take 3 steps forward and 10 steps back.

i also know that i use to do good on one hand and bad on the other and think that the good would balance the bad. Oh the bad wasn't real bad and the good was very good but i soon saw that any bad was bad for me.

Learning about life is about getting that personal connection to above and try to keep it. I am getting better and better at keeping it and yet it seems the better i get at keeping it the further away i get from connecting to basic humans.. I sometimes wish i could find a soulmate who also believed and listened and understood so that we together could go towards the future with guidance from above as two spirits lead without worry or fear of going it alone..

Going it alone is the one thing that makes living with a personal connection to above so hard.

oh well time to go to bed. hugs all

As this post comes to a close, let me thank you all for trying to put on paper why you believe in God.  Unfortunately, I'm still searching.  At risk of insulting (which is not my aim), I'll be honest with how I perceive the arguments so far...

I agree that God or some spirit exists and I share with you doubt about religions, be they faith-based or supernatural ones.  Some of the arguments in this thread have been overly long (and people call me long-winded, lol).  Often, they used the bible to defend their views.  Like you, I feel the arguments "simply don't provide enough concrete evidence of what they feel God is, not to mention I find them illogical and very difficult to follow."  The arguments follow neither the scientific, journalistic or legal methodology for establishing true "proof."

I said at the beginning of this post that, for me, I did not feel that things written thousands of years ago would have any traction in this discussion of whether God is a myth.  Some of you argued that the writings CAN be taken as real because of this or that.  If a judge or jury in a court tells you that they don't accept ancient writings as proof, why continue to argue them?  Just because you believe things in the bible doesn't mean I will accept them as proof.  Being brutally honest, a judge would say, "Not admissable," and ask if you had any other arguments.

I even pointed out, as an extreme, that if I was standing right beside Jesus as he lived and died, I would see no conclusive proof that he was God or son of God.  Some of you said that some people saw Jesus after he lived.  A friend of mine saw a Elliot, a friend who had died the previous day -- that didn't make Elliot another Jesus.  If Elliot had been a popular priest, perhaps his followers would have interpreted his re-appearance as resurrection.  It, to me, simply means either that our brains are able to conjure up the unimaginable (there's so much about our minds that we don't know) or that there is a dimension (call it the fifth dimension) that we don't yet understand.

Likewise, the argument that God was beside you, helping you not fall off a cliff is unfortunately not winning the case with me.  Such arguments can be interpreted as a person's subconscious sense of self-protection which we as thinking animals all have.  It's animal instinct, not God.  Likewise, I think the religious people who state that someone died on 9/11 because it was God's wish are just plain wrong.  Just my opinion.

I had hoped for some logical proof that would tip the scales and allow me to "believe."  In the end, the only proof I can discern of a god existing is one I had at the very beginning of this discussion: The complex inner beauty of the human body, nature and the universe could not be possible without SOMEONE pulling the strings.  The inner workings of our eyes, brains, heart, veins and liver could not just be a random accident.  Unfortunately, this argument has nothing to do with getting me into a church, synagogue or mosque.  These are just buildings to me.  As architect Frank Lloyd Wright said, "God is in Nature."

I appreciate the input though and know you all had good intentions in trying to help me in my quest.
Thank you all.

Teri Anne

Teri Anne,

I doubt you offend anyone for stating your views. As to finding logical proof, that was a lost cause from the beginning. The spiritual cannot be proven with logic at least not by any judicial measure. If that could be done everyone would believe, which I believe misses the point of taking on faith. Christ's ministries always required his followers to take a leap of faith.

As for your friend, that cannot be compared to the accounts of the ressurrection. Taking the biblical account at face value, Christ appeared physically to his disciples. Thomas upon hereing would not believe unless he could put his finger in one of Christ's wounds, which he subsequently did. Unless your friend appeared in the flesh there could be no comparison.

I understand your schepticisim. You have to find or not find god for yourself. It is the only way. There is no proof or logic that can give that to you. I wish you well and hope that someday you find what it is you are looking for. If it is only an inner peace that comes from simply deciding to live without any god then that is still better than no peace at all.

Good Journey,

Cassie

ahem . . . I've been quiet on this topic for a while now but I thought I'd stand up now and answer the question "Is God a Myth." My answer is yes. My argument is this: if there IS a God, She'd pretty much want us to keep our beliefs personal just between ourselves and Her, because for one thing, humans are flawed beings and as evidence shows, humans claiming to be representing Her are doing a pretty bad job of interpreting whatever they think She is trying to tell us. I highly doubt a Supreme Being intended for massive chaos like this. Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off. IMO!