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Asian techniques of jaw surgery

Started by charlotte15, October 11, 2015, 10:25:22 PM

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charlotte15

I have seen quite a few messages about the "Korean" or "Asian" techniques of jaw surgery, like:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,195947.0.html

I did not like the conclusion that suggested Asian surgeons were lying. It seemed a bit racist to me, so I researched the issue.

Basically, there are 2 different things:
- improving the lateral profile, by mandibular angle reduction : cutting a chuck to turn the sharp angle into a soft round angle
- improving the frontal view (when you see both you eyes in the mirror), by outer cortex grinning : cutting slices of the mandible to reduce its width

This is discussed at length on:
http://e-aaps.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.14730/aaps.2014.20.2.80&code=2014AAPS&vmode=PUBREADER#!po=58.3333

Extracts: "The conventional mandibular angle curved ostectomy often leads to a comparatively short ostectomy line and rough contour. Moreover, this procedure cannot resolve a broad chin

(...)

In 2011, Shao et al. [11] used full-thickness, long, curved ostectomy from the mandibular border of the mandible below the mental foramen to correct the lateral profile, and mandible corticectomy to improve the frontal appearance. This surgical technique is not limited to the angle but extends to the mandible body and ramus. Moreover, the lower face width (including the chin width) is reduced maximally with splitting corticectomy. However, this technique is more difficult than our technique and takes a longer time (average, 130 min compared with 60 min).

(...)

In 2014, Zhang et al. [13] reported that a single stage, en-bloc mandibular angle-body-chin curved ostectomy (MABCCO) technique via an intraoral approach coupled with outer cortex grinding (OCG) is the surgical treatment of choice for a prominent mandibular angle with a broad chin. This technique is similar to our technique, but there are several differences (...)  We can thus protect the mental nerve from transection and stretching.

Look at the dates: 2011, 2014, that's very recent!! New surgical techniques are not adopted immediately!! So the Asian surgeons are not lying - they are just using new techniques, a bit like Thai surgeons use non-penile-inversion which is not done everywhere else.

Why did they find new techniques? Because the Asian faces are a bit different: "In 1949, Adams [2] introduced ostectomy for a prominent mandibular angle and simultaneous resection of the masseter muscle using an external approach. Converse [3] used the same surgical technique as Adams but used an intraoral approach. McCarthy et al. [4] also used an intraoral approach to resect both the mandibular angle and masseter muscle. However, these surgical techniques have limited applications for Asian patients, because these techniques usually bring the angular process toward the middle of the mandibular body, termed the second mandibular angle".

However, not everything is perfect in Korea. One big thing is forgotten: sometimes, it is also necessary to associate a facelift and/or a fat reduction to reduce jowl. This is seen in figure 3 of the article, as the jaw line is no longer marked. Jaw line issues are discussed on
http://www.plasticsurgerypractice.com/2012/01/jawline-aesthetics/

Assuming away these jaw line issues, good pictures can be found on http://www.tlplasticsurgery.com/?p=3905 and more on http://www.tlplasticsurgery.com/?cat=17

Different techniques yield different results, and each girl has to select the best technique for her specific case. But yes, like for SRS, there are techniques done in Asia that seem to me to just be better.

I hope this message can be useful to those who are looking for aggressive jaw surgery options, as I am myself investigating.
AA, Laser and Electrolysis since 2011
HRT since 2014
FFS done in 2015
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myfairlady49


The advertising for the "asian surgery"   that you reference has pictures of people that are supposed to be legitimate "before" and "after" pictures.  But if you pull the pictures into a photo editor and do the metrics - -  they are NOT the same person,  or else the results have been seriously photo shopped - -  and not even good photo shopping !

Example,  in one set of  B & A pictures, from one of the links you posted,  the eyes are the exact same width.  That is good.  But then the neck in the "after" is dramatically thinner (no claim of any neck surgery) and then when you look  closely the left  ear in the "after" is substantially higher on the head than the right ear - - -  yet in the "before"  picture they are symmetrical !

Have not yet seen any group of pictures of Asian Surgery results for which there was not visible evidence of photo-shopping or outright substitution of  the face before for another different "after" person.

Why would anyone start out to find a surgeon who allows that sort of improper advertising to attempt to represent their capabilities ???
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sh1982

Sorry myfairlady you keep repeating these accussations for all these doctors in Korea but like i said in another topic there are more then enough clips like this one where you can see the results of some of the surgeries they perform
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myfairlady49

Quote from: sh1982 on October 13, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
Sorry myfairlady you keep repeating these accussations for all these doctors in Korea but like i said in another topic there are more then enough clips like this one where you can see the results of some of the surgeries they perform

So without even going to a photo editor - - -

The necks are different widths in relation to the heads.  So they are either photo shopped, or they are different people.

  The RH ("after" ) picture is intellectually dishonest - -  because it is not even remotely an apples - to - apples comparison.   In the RH,  the pretty lady has 1) different hair color ; 2) eye lashes;  3) different skin color; 4) different foundation make up with fashion model style lighting and facial "highlights" ;  5) extensive make up (lip stick)   and etc.

Good surgeons do not try to confuse or even deceive their patients with  before and after pictures that feature "after" pictures that are highly altered with make up that is not present in the before picture.

Also,  the distance from the nose to the upper lip in the after picture is lengthened ...  probably not a good idea.  Not as attractive as the lip configuration in the before picture, which is more open and turned up.
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charlotte15

Whatever. I guess you don't trust Korean surgeons. What I trust is experience. If my upcoming jaw surgery is not sufficient, I will just go with a Korean surgeon.
AA, Laser and Electrolysis since 2011
HRT since 2014
FFS done in 2015
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Promethea

The after in the video and the after in the thumbnail look completely different. The one in the video still has a protruding jaw (not as much as before, obviously, but still protruding) and some underbite. They made her stand with her chin closer to her chest, which she wasn't doing before, to make it look smaller, but it was too much and looked awkward. If she had put her face like that before the surgery you would have been able to see some difference. I know because I do it and it makes a difference.

Be careful with who you trust with bringing a knife to your face. If your expectations are unrealistic and the person is experienced but dishonest you can send up disappointed (if you're lucky), disfigured or worse.
Life is a dream we wake from.



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RubyAliza

Thanks so much Charlotte for your research. I found this link http://www.plasticsurgerypractice.com/2012/01/jawline-aesthetics/ very helpful because I haven't heard much about the different issues aside from bone. In terms of bone, I'm not terribly happy with the vertices of my jaw, they make my face wider at the bottom than I would like but for me personally, the real issue is the soft tissue: After my jaw/chin reduction, the muscles, skin, and fat aren't contouring well, they hang over the jawline making me much more androgynous than I'd like. When I lift the soft tissue myself, my jowls and lower cheeks, I can actually see the angle of the jawbone isn't bad at all.

    The Facial Team website, which is one of the most well made I'll admit, mentions something about this under their jaw work section. Sometimes this tissue needs to be lifted to contour to the new, more feminine jaw angle. Don't know if that's an problem you have too.

Wish you the best on your upcoming revisions.

Thanks again!

- Ruby
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charlotte15

Indeed, it's a problem I have too. My jaw looks big because of that. It is called ptosis, and as you found out that can be fixed by a face lift. I'm not sure it needs a neck lift too.

I will try to have that fixed, and if it's not enough I guess I will ask a Korean surgeon.
AA, Laser and Electrolysis since 2011
HRT since 2014
FFS done in 2015
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RubyAliza

Yep I'm doing the same. Don't worry Charlotte, that'll be enough along with some minor bone reduction, probably at the vertices to decrease lower jaw width. Maybe ask MDM to do a masseter muscle reduction? Also, hormones will help with that as well. Best wishes :)

- Ruby
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deeiche

Quote from: RubyAliza on October 18, 2015, 11:51:01 AM
Thanks so much Charlotte for your research. I found this link http://www.plasticsurgerypractice.com/2012/01/jawline-aesthetics/ very helpful because I haven't heard much about the different issues aside from bone. In terms of bone, I'm not terribly happy with the vertices of my jaw, they make my face wider at the bottom than I would like but for me personally, the real issue is the soft tissue: After my jaw/chin reduction, the muscles, skin, and fat aren't contouring well, they hang over the jawline making me much more androgynous than I'd like. When I lift the soft tissue myself, my jowls and lower cheeks, I can actually see the angle of the jawbone isn't bad at all.

    The Facial Team website, which is one of the most well made I'll admit, mentions something about this under their jaw work section. Sometimes this tissue needs to be lifted to contour to the new, more feminine jaw angle. Don't know if that's an problem you have too.

Wish you the best on your upcoming revisions.

Thanks again!

- Ruby
Besides the bone work; forehead, jaw and chin, reconstructive rhinoplasty, I got a LOT of soft tissue work done at the same time as the .  As a 57 yo woman I already had a lot of sagging skin on my face, so I decided to get neck/face lift, upper blepharoplasty and fat transfers at the same time.  I was told best results would be by having soft tissue work done after I healed from bone work.  However I did not want to go through multiple surgeries, I did that in the mid-80's prior to and during transition.

So far things look great.  I need the swelling to go down before making final judgement, but I'm not looking for perfection.

An observation, the FFS pioneer, Dr Ousterhout almost always recommended bone work and soft tissue work done at two different time.

"It's only money, not life or death"
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charlotte15

Quote from: RubyAliza on October 19, 2015, 10:55:54 PM
Maybe ask MDM to do a masseter muscle reduction?

He strongly suggested I don't do that because of the risk of bad results. I trust what he says, so I will let him do what he thinks is best

Quote from: deeiche on October 20, 2015, 07:30:49 AM
I was told best results would be by having soft tissue work done after I healed from bone work.  However I did not want to go through multiple surgeries, I did that in the mid-80's prior to and during transition.

An observation, the FFS pioneer, Dr Ousterhout almost always recommended bone work and soft tissue work done at two different time.

I read the same thing. It's better in 2 separate times. Yet Dr MDM does the 2 step surgery even for older patients with soft tissue + jaw bone on the same week. It avoids having to go through multiple surgeries. I trust his decision there.

But there's the money problem too - it's not free to do all that :-) I've very grateful of my new job. I will see how my personal finances evolve, and if I can follow with my plan.
AA, Laser and Electrolysis since 2011
HRT since 2014
FFS done in 2015
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kittenpower

U.S. surgeons can be just as aggressive with bone work, and the downside of aggressive work is a long recovery process with a lot of swelling. I had aggressive jaw (with masseter muscle reduction) and chin work done 6 weeks ago, and I still have a lot of swelling; it has not been an easy recovery process, but I think it would have been worse if I had to go through the first couple of weeks in a foreign country.
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