I still have my doubts about the nature of this feeling for me. I can't shake the feeling that other people are transgender and I'm just messed up. One of the reasons for this is because the only thing that really causes me a problem that I physically want to have the body of a female, and less of the social stuff that I hear from others.  I sometimes think that if I never had to look at another woman that I'd be ok. It's when I see a girl who I think looks good, or wearing cool clothes, or with nice hair or something that I just feel this complete hopelessness that I'll never look like that. And I ask myself why I feel that way as I'm feeling it and I have absolutely no clue. It makes me completely depressed. One of the main reasons I feel like I might have just gotten something really wrong in my head is because I don't relate too much to the whole 'uncomfortable with my given gender role' thing. I mean I don't really want anyone to treat me any kind of way because of how I look. I just want to look like a girl. I do feel a lot calmer in the company of women, even though that has been pretty rare in my life. I feel very uncomfortable in large groups of guys in particular and I do feel different to them. But there are plenty of guys who are just more comfortable being feminine or who have all female friends and it doesn't mean they want to be a girl. When I'm working I always feel tense when a particularly macho type guy orders a drink. I'm not sure why but that whole interaction feels very awkward to me. I feel much more comfortable serving women. But again like I say there's loads of guys who maybe are like that and it doesn't mean they want to be women. It might just be that I see through all the macho crap that has been a pretty big part of my life for different reasons. I also have no doubt that if I was a girl I wouldn't like being around particularly 'feminine' girls. It makes me sort of squirm to suddenly imagine being treated like 'one of the girls', and then that leads me to thinking that I've got this feeling all wrong.

I prefer people who don't define themselves by their gender too much. I mean people talk about all these gender stereotypes being just that; that acting a certain kind of way or liking certain things doesn't make you male or female. I sometimes think the only real part of this is wanting to look female, but then at other times I think it means that I'm not transgender at all and like I say a bit messed up. I really can't shake that feeling that I'm crazy, and it's partly because if I'm honest I can't relate to a lot of what other peoples transgender experiences seem to be. I mean the point of this post isn't to talk about passing but a common piece of advice given is that passing isn't as important as feeling content with the female you are inside. I don't know. I don't really feel like that. I don't feel like a guy either though. I'm just a person. I just know I'd rather look like a girl. Be a girl I guess. But it wouldn't change too much about the way I act or the way I'd want others to act towards me. 

So I guess what I'm asking is, do you think the only neccessary requirement to having gender dysphoria is wanting to look different to your assigned gender? Or have I got this all wrong? I still have a lot of doubts.

I don't have any answers for you, but I think you've nailed exactly how I feel too. I'm just moving forward slowly, dressing more often, and just started going out a couple of times to a local support group to try and find where I might fit, if anywhere.

You could have a look here for a few resources:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,197634.msg1757754.html#msg1757754

There are no exact criteria... its a transgender spectrum.
You might look for a good gender therapist to help you along.


hugs

Wow, I could have written that, pretty much word for word!  In fact, I just started writing a diary to help myself figure this stuff out, and I just did write pretty much exactly what you wrote.

This stuff confuses me, too, but what I have figured out is that it is a spectrum.  I know that I'm not on the cis-male end of the spectrum, but that doesn't mean that I'm at the other end of it either.  I am likely somewhere in between.  Perhaps you are too.

I don't fit into male culture because ... well ... I just don't.  Tried it for 60 years, and it just ain't me.  But I don't fit into female culture either because I am lacking in any experience or education in how to do it.  All my cis-female peers have a 60-year head start on me.  So the idea of transition scares the crap out of me.

All I know is that I wish I was a woman.  I wish I could wear swishy skirts and pretty clothes.  And still keep my power tools!   

Alas, I have no answers for you, but I sure do understand the question.

I seem to be the same, mostly physical. I find it kind of odd, but it doesn't bother me. I did my best not to do anything about it, and then to stay on low dose HRT. I failed totally. I literally can't live the other way so what difference does it matter how you label it?

Having said that, as Laura pointed out, transgender is a spectrum, and you're easily on it. Its a very wide spectrum, and you wouldn't be having these issues if you weren't somewhere on it.

I'm on a full transitioning level of HRT and have very little need to socially transition right now. If I feel the need for SRS I'm going to do that, and still not bother with the social transition. If I need to social transition I'll do that too, although I'm afraid of what it will cost me. I discovered the hard way that there's no fighting what you need to do, the only question is how long you last and how much suffering you endure along the way.

I also found these things evolve with time. Basically they get worse as you get older. I had a such a tiny issue 20 years ago I didn't even realize what it was, and it certainly wasn't a problem. Now look at me...

The way you put your title described me completely except I am the other way around..  I ONLY felt that I should have a male body  and absolutely NOTHING MORE.  I was already against the way that the two genders are divided in everything one can think of way before I knew what transgender even was.

As you can see it is a fairly common feeling for a lot of trans people. Some might feel more issue with the physical dysphoria, others more the social dysphoria, others still might feel both as strong.

Thats how I felt when I first started this journey and proceeded on HRT on these presumptions. I had a great therapist and he helped me appreciate the changes mentally,both in empathy and in how I perceive the world. Today, the mental changes facinate me and I find myself just naturally changing in my extending relationships with females and my shrinking relationships with males. But as Grace says we all have our unique journey.

I guess for me my physical dysphoria has always been more of a problem than social, because I have never had any problems socializing with women.  I still remember halfway through grad school when a female friend of mine said to me, "C-----, you're the kind of guy every woman wants to have for a brother."

That didn't do much for my love life, (I like women) but it proved to be prophetic by someone who saw under my skin something that I was still in denial about.  To this day, I have several close female friends in the workplace, and I get along with them very easily.

On the other side, I've never functioned will in the testosterone fueled guy world, unless the guys I hang with are really geeky and we are sharing geek love for a common interest.

100% - and if you feel like that then, at 31 years postop, I can tell you that transition and all the "gender" related "bolocks" that most of the good people on here oddly find extremely helpful will probably seem like a bloody ordeal for you, to be endured in order to gain the surgery, but GCS is definitely worth it and solves the issue. Or at least it did for me.

I'm very supportive of the transgender community, because I recognise their problems as entirely valid, and similar in effect and end result to mine. We all want to end up being seen as female, its just that we approach that from opposite ends, but I still do not personally feel that I am trans-gender or indeed ever have been. So in my mind I'm entirely here as a supporter, although I have never identified as transgender personally nor will I, for that very reason.

Quote from: makipu on October 15, 2015, 10:18:19 PM
The way you put your title described me completely except I am the other way around.

Ditto

Hi orangejuice,

First of all, to answer your question:

Quote from: orangejuice on October 15, 2015, 06:54:11 PM
So I guess what I'm asking is, do you think the only neccessary requirement to having gender dysphoria is wanting to look different to your assigned gender? Or have I got this all wrong?

Essentially, No, and No.

->-bleeped-<- lives on multiple levels and to a degree is evolutionary.
By multiple levels I mean it's, emotional, intellectual, psychological, environmental and physical. Not all of these "levels" are immediately drawn into your conscious thinking. They may not follow a distinctive or predictive pattern of development or behaviour. You just need to be aware of their existence and deal with them as they arise.

A little like the 7 stages of grief. If you know what they are, you'll be able to identify their nature, deal with them and move forward. Not locked into an unknown anger, unable to process and pass through it. ->-bleeped-<- is the same. How grief affects you will be different to how grief affects me, so does ->-bleeped-<-. What's different to you, will be different for me. So you don't have this thing all wrong at all. You are simply having a different "common" journey to all.

From what you have said, I'm convinced you are Transgendered, without any doubt at all. What does concern me is the level of doubt you have, and the resultant feelings of depression you have from these unprocessed feelings. What you are experiencing is totally normal. What you need to seriously consider, so as to deal with the depression, is to pencil some time in with a gender therapist who can help you navigate this labyrinth of feelings, emotions, thoughts and psychological hoops and jumps in an informed and educated fashion. Then, and only then can you decide what to do with it all.

It's like thinking about where you want to go for your holidays. You can think as much as you like, but it's not until you see the travel agent that things will start to happen.

Be kind to yourself, keep in touch and let us know how you're coping.

Huggs
Catherine

Thank you for the replies it helps me to get other people's opinions. Probably more than seeing a therapist. I mean either way I've realised that its me alone that can figure this out, and so I'd rather get as much knowledge about as wide a range of experiences as I can.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on October 16, 2015, 07:08:23 AM
What you need to seriously consider, so as to deal with the depression, is to pencil some time in with a gender therapist who can help you navigate this labyrinth of feelings, emotions, thoughts and psychological hoops and jumps in an informed and educated fashion. Then, and only then can you decide what to do with it all.

Hi Catherine, thank you for the response.That pretty much all makes sense to me. But I do have this slight issue with therapy. I feel like I'm someone who has a great deal of self-awareness. Too much in fact. I'd be better at life if acted on impulse more rather than thought about why I am the way I am and why I do the things I do.I hope this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I feel like I'm possibly too smart for therapy. I feel like a lot of it is about the power of suggestion; to hear something that hasn't occurred to you before, and instantly take it and believe it to be true, without maybe thinking about it too much. And because you believe it completely, it helps you. I'm someone who there isn't much that hasn't occurred to, and when I choose a direction to take I'm also completely aware of all the pros and cons of that particular thing. I don't know. I'm sounding like a prat here. I'm not saying there aren't therapist out there who I couldn't learn about myself from, but this is the other thing, I'm from a small country, as far as I'm aware there are only one or two practising gender therapists, and when I went privately there was only one as far as I could find. Given that the population is small, I feel like they might only have experience in dealing with the most 'obvious' kind of gender dysphoria- 'I have been a woman my whole life but I was born in the wrong body' type of thing.' But that might be a little ignorant.

Mostly its this- transgender medicine is hardly a well developed field. I mean I'm not saying that the current practices or theories are wrong or that there are not smart people out there giving treatment. But the whole way medicine works is that best common practice emerges over time and volume of patients. That is how you can trust it. It's hard for me to believe that going to see the one qualified gender therapist, a relatively new field, in a tiny country, as someone who probably lies outside the 'norm' (as much as there is one) even with transgender patients, is really going to help me. At least not as much as me gaining as much information from as many others as I can who all experience this to varying degrees and in different ways. It all just comes back to the only person who can really solve this is me.

I could be wrong and I welcome people's opinions? It would still be the first thing I would recommend to someone else, to see a gender therapist.

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 15, 2015, 09:58:05 PM
I seem to be the same, mostly physical. I find it kind of odd, but it doesn't bother me. I did my best not to do anything about it, and then to stay on low dose HRT. I failed totally. I literally can't live the other way so what difference does it matter how you label it?

If I decide to take hormones I would without a doubt start on low dose. I've read about people approaching it that way and it would seem the best way forward for me. But here's my question. Right now my whole world is macho. Within my immediate small social circle, and my larger social circle, there isn't one person who wouldn't find this the most bizarre thing they've ever heard, and not one who has a clue what it really feels like to be transgender and what real transgender people are like. I can say with some confidence that 99% of people who know me, the image that springs to mind of a 'transsexual' (my own transphobia makes me despise that word) is of some sort of perverted porn star. I don't have any kind of stability or really any idea of what the future holds for me career wise. I'm likely going to be diving into something completely new with a fair degree of anxiousness in the next year or so. My parents I doubt would believe me as I've kept this hidden since I was 4 years old, and I love sports, so my life has been to all intents and purposes a macho one even thought that's not me. They'd support me no matter what but would think I'd gotten depressed and into a 'wrong' way of thinking. They don't know that I'm depressed because of this. My sisters I think would be genuinely heartbroken to lose the brother they thought they had, in fact writing that now it makes me think there is no way I could do that. I'm also someone who absolutely hates attention. I'm not proud of it but I care what people are thinking of me a lot, and I can't handle it when I think they are judging me in a way that I don't like or that I think is wrong.

Sooo given all the above do you think it would absolutely absurd to begin low dose HRT? I mean do you think I need to make changes to my life and even the way I feel about myself before that would be a good idea? The thought of my life as it is now but slowly gaining the appearance of having breasts is, well, it doesn't bear thinking about really. Again I'm just asking for opinions, I'm not going to take anything someone says as some oracle of truth so don't hold back.

Much of what you have said could have been written by me.  I've also wondered if it was "all in my head" and sometimes think I will "outgrow" this phase in time.  I am not aware of anyone else "outgrowing" it and for most people it just seems to get worse over time.

Like you, I would love to have a more female body and to be able to wear nice clothes.  That will probably never happen, at least not completely.  I also feel more comfortable being in a group of women, and usually feel awkward in a group of men at conventions, for example.  It seems like so many men try to be extra macho, sort of like they are having a urinating contest to see who can be more macho.  I think a lot of men are rather insecure and try to cover it up by pretending to be macho.

My gender therapist helped me a lot.  I have gone through periods of denial and occasionally still do, but down deep believe I am on the transgender chart somewhere.  Even though you live in a small country you might be surprised how they could help you. 

What Catherine said  +++

This is a great place for many reasons as I'm sure you'll find.   Please stay in touch and share as you move along your journey.  Keeping stuff in conversation is a powerful way to process on so many fronts, and you get a sense of community and shared destiny out of the exchange.  (It's really cool     )

Take good care and know your concerns, while yours, are not unique and others have proceeded you and now have great lives - you can as well.

All the best to you and yours,

Rachel

Rachel

Quote from: orangejuice on October 16, 2015, 10:29:45 AM
Hi Catherine, thank you for the response.That pretty much all makes sense to me. But I do have this slight issue with therapy. I feel like I'm someone who has a great deal of self-awareness. Too much in fact. I'd be better at life if acted on impulse more rather than thought about why I am the way I am and why I do the things I do.I hope this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I feel like I'm possibly too smart for therapy. I feel like a lot of it is about the power of suggestion; to hear something that hasn't occurred to you before, and instantly take it and believe it to be true, without maybe thinking about it too much. And because you believe it completely, it helps you. I'm someone who there isn't much that hasn't occurred to, and when I choose a direction to take I'm also completely aware of all the pros and cons of that particular thing. I don't know. I'm sounding like a prat here. I'm not saying there aren't therapist out there who I couldn't learn about myself from, but this is the other thing, I'm from a small country, as far as I'm aware there are only one or two practising gender therapists, and when I went privately there was only one as far as I could find. Given that the population is small, I feel like they might only have experience in dealing with the most 'obvious' kind of gender dysphoria- 'I have been a woman my whole life but I was born in the wrong body' type of thing.' But that might be a little ignorant.

Mostly its this- transgender medicine is hardly a well developed field. I mean I'm not saying that the current practices or theories are wrong or that there are not smart people out there giving treatment. But the whole way medicine works is that best common practice emerges over time and volume of patients. That is how you can trust it. It's hard for me to believe that going to see the one qualified gender therapist, a relatively new field, in a tiny country, as someone who probably lies outside the 'norm' (as much as there is one) even with transgender patients, is really going to help me. At least not as much as me gaining as much information from as many others as I can who all experience this to varying degrees and in different ways. It all just comes back to the only person who can really solve this is me.

I could be wrong and I welcome people's opinions? It would still be the first thing I would recommend to someone else, to see a gender therapist.

I think that's an understandable perspective. I went to a number of mental health professionals in my teenage years, and none of them every got to the root of my problems or told me anything I didn't already know. I guess I didn't help them much either, since I was intentionally evasive about anything relating to gender nonconformity. There were only a couple of times in all the years I spent working with mental health professionals that anyone got close to the truth. One was when I was taking a personality test and I had to blatantly lie to sidestep a few questions having to do with gender nonconformity. The other was when a therapist I was seeing just came straight out and asked me why I wasn't interested in dating, and I didn't really have a good answer, so I had to change the subject. At the time I just didn't want them to think I was gay or even some sort of weirdo. I knew deep down inside that I had issues with my gender, but I didn't know much about being transgender and all the different ways it can affect you. I thought if you weren't interested in crossdressing or gay, there was no way you could be transgender anyway.

What my experiences working with mental health professionals over the years have told me, is that all they are really capable of doing is to help you come to terms with things you already know, but can't accept. If you don't know what's wrong, they can't tell you, and if you do know what's wrong, you are probably capable of figuring out what you need to do to deal with it yourself. But sometimes people just need to hear it coming from someone else to have their own feelings validated before they can feel like they're doing the right thing. If you're not that kind of person, then it probably is better to talk to people who have had real experiences similar to yours, because they are the ones you're really going to be able to learn from. But then again, if you don't want to go the informed consent route (or it's not available to you), talking to a therapist is the only way to get a referral for HRT, so there is that...

Quote from: orangejuice on October 16, 2015, 10:29:45 AM
Hi Catherine, thank you for the response.That pretty much all makes sense to me. But I do have this slight issue with therapy. I feel like I'm someone who has a great deal of self-awareness. Too much in fact. I'd be better at life if acted on impulse more rather than thought about why I am the way I am and why I do the things I do.I hope this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I feel like I'm possibly too smart for therapy. I feel like a lot of it is about the power of suggestion; to hear something that hasn't occurred to you before, and instantly take it and believe it to be true, without maybe thinking about it too much. And because you believe it completely, it helps you. I'm someone who there isn't much that hasn't occurred to, and when I choose a direction to take I'm also completely aware of all the pros and cons of that particular thing. I don't know. I'm sounding like a prat here. I'm not saying there aren't therapist out there who I couldn't learn about myself from, but this is the other thing, I'm from a small country, as far as I'm aware there are only one or two practising gender therapists, and when I went privately there was only one as far as I could find. Given that the population is small, I feel like they might only have experience in dealing with the most 'obvious' kind of gender dysphoria- 'I have been a woman my whole life but I was born in the wrong body' type of thing.' But that might be a little ignorant.

I think you have the wrong idea about therapy. There's plenty of very intelligent people here who get a lot out of therapy. Quite likely some are smarter than their therapists.

The therapist doesn't ask you questions then hand you a diagnosis. You talk a lot and when you've worked it out for yourself you tell them.

In my case I saw a psychiatrist and we did a therapy based approach. I'd go to each session and I'd lead off with whatever I wanted to talk about. He would ask questions along the way, but it was mainly me doing the talking and setting the direction. Between sessions I'd typically find that what was bothering me would be resolved and I'd find a new problem to talk about at the next session. Eventually I ran out of things and told him I didn't need to see him anymore. Its amazing how just talking to someone who listens helps.

I wasn't there for a diagnosis or letters as I'd already been on HRT for a long time. I was seriously depressed due to gender issues and needed help. I'm feeling really good right now.

The fist time I saw a therapist was similar but not so intense so I'll not describe it. I started HRT when I felt ready. That took a year, but was entirely my choice. I could have started immediately.

In some ways I don't think its necessary for the therapist to understand what being transgender is. I found it very difficult to work out my psych's feelings on the matter. He hid it very well. That fact that he listens without judgement and helps move the discussion forward was enough.

Quote from: orangejuice on October 16, 2015, 10:29:45 AM
Sooo given all the above do you think it would absolutely absurd to begin low dose HRT? I mean do you think I need to make changes to my life and even the way I feel about myself before that would be a good idea? The thought of my life as it is now but slowly gaining the appearance of having breasts is, well, it doesn't bear thinking about really. Again I'm just asking for opinions, I'm not going to take anything someone says as some oracle of truth so don't hold back.

I started with low dose and stayed on it for years. I was trying not to transition, so it was a good way to keep my sanity while not changing too fast. I don't think its possible to understand what its like to be on HRT until you try it, but I found its a one way trip, or slippery slope if you like. Chances are you won't be able to stop. You won't want to.

Quote from: orangejuice on October 16, 2015, 10:29:45 AM
But I do have this slight issue with therapy. I feel like I'm someone who has a great deal of self-awareness. Too much in fact. I'd be better at life if acted on impulse more rather than thought about why I am the way I am and why I do the things I do.I hope this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I feel like I'm possibly too smart for therapy.

I agree with AnonyMs on this point. Therapy comes in many forms, and often its success is less about anything the therapist does or says and more about the role they play in helping you to understand yourself. At my therapy sessions, I completely dominate the talking and I pretty much pick the topics and move the conversation around. And it really is more like a conversation than anything else. But after a few years of meeting with my therapist, our sessions have become a place where I think about things in a way that is different from other places and times.

Not that he does nothing, he is insightful, and particularly before being trangender came to dominate our discussions, he did very actively help me to learn some things about myself. It was subtle, though, and even that was something that didn't come up every session.

I came in to the sessions with an attitude somewhat like yours, which tbh is a somewhat arrogant way to look at it. For me anyway, it was neither a correct nor a helpful perspective. We don't see a therapist because they are smarter than us, or because we can't solve problems as difficult as the ones we have. Even if you have thought of everything, sometimes experience dealing with an issue is helpful in recognizing which of many options is the most likely to help. Also, just having a person to talk to can force you to consider things in a way that is different from how you think. They may challenge your reasoning in a way that is hard to do in your own head, where there's no independent voice of opposition. I very often find that simply having to explicitly lay out my reasons for believing something helps with recognizing assumptions I didn't even know I was making.

With regard to your initial post, a life-long physical dysphoria was what led me to eventually realize I was transgender. It was focused on my body, mostly on having genitals that weren't right. I didn't hate anything about my body, but I was very upset that I did not have a girl's body. I never had a particular urge to be socially female, and I never cross-dressed at all. None of that was of interest.

Since coming out and beginning transition, I have realized that I do in fact want and need to express myself as a woman, and to inhabit more of a traditionally female social role. These feelings were lurking under the surface, and as soon as I felt free to be honest, they found their way out.

So I guess my advice would be not to assume that the feelings you are currently aware of are definitely the only ones you have. Repression can be very, very hard to recognize. People are good at hiding from scary truths.

Hi thought I would chime in..
Therapy, get to know yourself as well as you can.. its ok if you don't fit the mold exactly.. but what you really want to know is if you would rather live life as a woman.. that is if you go full time.. hence the Guidelines used today for RLE which is so important..
I happen to love to socialize as a female but love to talk to guys and girls.
I was always very social anyway..
I suppose what I am saying is that the most important thing is... do you have GID.. how severe.. and what do you want to do about it..
Your asking the right questions.. .. I hope you find all the answers you are looking for .. good luck.
Keri

I guess the way you state it for yourself is to hard : "It's just my body" . The body is all we get to see from another,we will never be able to see someones soul. The body is the expression of your soul. So this is severe enough to be treated properly. A treatment however is not the same basic package for everyone. It depends on what one wants to achieve, at what speed,... I never got accepted for who I was as a male because I didn't know how to be male and to act masculin. My parents were these extremely catholic conservatives who would try to get a psychiatrist make me "normal". When the psychiatrist would confirm my transgenderness(hell, is that even a word?) they would push me not to see him anymore.But waiting till they were gone wasn't an option either. So I did what I had to do for myself and that was going on hormone therapy and going full time.Well going full time came first but nevermind. If I ever could afford GCS I would love to have that to.
Hugs.