Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:16:31 PM

Quote from: Berliegh

Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...

STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING.  THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:

Can one live as their target gender without passing?

Steph

you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?

The topic is turning into a picture gallery.  That was not the intent of the question asked.

Steph

...wasn't that relating to the topic anyway?

Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:22:42 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:16:31 PM

Quote from: Berliegh

Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Okay here we go again...

STAY ON TOPIC OR RISK HAVING YOUR REPLIES DELETED WITHOUT WARNING.  THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED IS:

Can one live as their target gender without passing?

Steph

you need to clarify who is off topic Steph, as I didn't see any posts in the thread that were off topic?

The topic is turning into a picture gallery.  That was not the intent of the question asked.

Steph

...wasn't that relating to the topic anyway?

Nope...

This link refers:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174433.html#msg174433

and then this one:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174450.html#msg174450

and so on...

End of debate!

Steph

Quote from: Steph on December 16, 2007, 02:42:32 PM

Nope...

This link refers:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174433.html#msg174433

and then this one:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22813.msg174450.html#msg174450

and so on...

End of debate!

Steph

Keira posted a series of picture's directly related to the topic and I and other forum members found them very iinteresting as to what can be achieved with a small amount of facial surgery.  Her point was directly related to the topic and for many (like Keira, like me) their main objective is to live as their target gender and pass.

Quote from: Renate on December 16, 2007, 08:22:45 AM
To return to the original question: Can one live as their target gender without passing?
All I know is that I can live without passing.
Renate

I am certainly glad that you can.  Seriously, I'm happy for you.  But I just can't.  I am not yet able to live as my target gender, but the thought of not passing mortifies me.  Maybe I am just not as secure as I should be at this point.

Kristi

Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 07:01:57 PM

Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.

Hi Keira. You should definitely start a photo thread. You are one of the few girls who actually feel comfortable displaying the before and after in more than one view. And I really think it helps a lot of new and young transitioners.

I found Keira pictures very helpful. The reason I took my position because issue is how I feel about myself. It sometimes feels like passing is unattainable for me. I been a guy physical for 33 years and worried that some of that guyiness might stick or I might make a poor woman. If the only way someone should transition if their going to accepted 100% and pass 100% of the time that is tough standard. Allot might might feel that this is unreachable. I find hard to believe if someone goes through transition then to never pass at all. I just don't think it possible.

I when I say something inappropriate or might could be taken the wrong way call me on please. Embarrassment is easier to take than worry. I was worried about this comment"If I was worried about what others would think I stop what I'm doing and delete this  account." I was concerned that someone might of took as advice. I was trying make a point that if I let what most people think affect me to much I wouldn't be here.

Good morning all
AnnaJasmine

I met this other MtF at a TG function the other night, to be kind, she was not very passible, she told me how she lived in fear for her life anytime she is around Afrifcan-American men as she was attacked by a black man apparently just because of the way she looked. I just sympathized with her but I thought to myself how different my experiance is as I seem to get the opposite reaction. (lust)

I don't think I could live my life like that.

Quote from: Nero on December 16, 2007, 07:14:07 PM

Quote from: Keira on December 16, 2007, 07:01:57 PM

Well, my photo's were somewhat related to the topic since it dealth with
passing and the effect of HRT and FFS on passing.
The other photos, well probably not related to te topic.
I should probably have created my own thread for my photos
and indeed might still do it tuesday when I've got more time.

Hi Keira. You should definitely start a photo thread. You are one of the few girls who actually feel comfortable displaying the before and after in more than one view. And I really think it helps a lot of new and young transitioners.

Yes please, Keira.  Your pictures have been tremendous!  Ever since I heard of FFS I've been out there looking for information and pictures but too many only post a couple of pictures, which makes me think they're cherry picking the worst before and the best after.

Val

To respond to the O.P.

To me, the answer is yes. you can.

I say this, because it doesn't seem like living depends on passing or gender.

I still have facial hair issues, especially in the evenings, and it doesn't effect what my gender is or whether I continue my life or not.

I go to school, do my work, come home, pay my bills, and don't worry about it.

The only way I've found to get over my fear, has been to do what it is that I am afraid of.
Nothing else has worked. There wasn't an "easy" or "gentle" way to do it. I just had to be terrified, and do it anyway.

It seems to not bother me hardly as much now, but what is "living"?
I use the restroom of my choice, Am refered to with pronouns appropreate to my gender, although anyone who knows me or is arround me at the evening time can see signs of facial hair.
So what does "live as your target gender" mean?

I don't have a "target gender" I have a gender. It doesn't depend on my looks.
Gender and sex are two different things.
I have been living with my gender since I was a little kid, coming out doesn't change that.

So what does that mean?
-Sarah

i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....

To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...
R

Hi Sarah
Good post and I could about say the same as you did. There certainly are elements of fear and probably rightly so, because if a person is not ready for it, the whole venture could end with disastrous results. If this is so, It may be preferable to defer from transitioning for a while longer and consult with a therapist. I found that once I jumped through the hoop the fear slowly left and I just went about my day just as any other regular woman that worked at the same place I did. Whether I pass or not? Well I guess that is questionable. I've not had anyone come back and ask me, or call my by the wrong pronouns. Nothing has given me cause to fear since I have been full time for 7 years now.

Cindy

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....

To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...

See.... I'd have flipped that.

by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 09:04:56 PM
by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R

Of course,
if you take "totally BE that gender...inwardly..", literally, that brings up the question of chromosomes and DNA...

P.S. if you need more rockets I hear you can find anything in Turkey...

I agree with Rachael. You have to not just feel but know, totally convinced that the inner self and outer are one. Two souls merging into one there is only one you, completely. If one truly believes that in their mind then you are you and be it.

Cindy 

Quote from: Sarah on December 17, 2007, 09:10:22 PM

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 09:04:56 PM
by be, i mean, totally BE that gender... outwardly, and inwardly... if people are respectful =/= accept as whatever gender you present.
R

Of course,
if you take "totally BE that gender...inwardly..", literally, that brings up the question of chromosomes and DNA...

P.S. if you need more rockets I hear you can find anything in Turkey...

no, i dont mean chromasomes... i mean inwardly:mentally, and outwardly:look only that gender.
If you are taken as a male, when you live as a female, you cannot be living the life of a woman.... you can live a quite close, nice litty parody, but without everyone, seeing JUST a girl when they look, interact, and are around you, socially your not a woman.. they might treat you LIKE a girl, but you wont be treated like another female. TRUST ME, ive seen the two sides of the 'this person is ts' and 'this is another girl' type social interatctions, thankfully, its all the latter thesedays.
like i said, anyone can live a life LIKE someone, its emulation, not integration...
can transwomen integrate into female society? sure. You just need to pass... this world isnt, and for a long time to come, WONT accept transpeople as just like natal men and woman. time to live in here and now.
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 17, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
i agree...
you dont have to pass to live AS your target gender....

To BE your target gender. you MUST pass completely...
R

This sounds good on the surface, but do you realize some natal women get clocked?


Back on topic: Yes, you can live as you true self, but you better have a thick skin.  And I think where you live also plays into this.  Some areas are more accepting than others.  For example in my neck of the woods peoples attitude is generally "whatever floats your boat".  People generally do not get verbal or physical here.  I never heard a single negative remark during my transition; even when I had to out myself once to an auto mechanic.  Anyways, I went into transition expecting stares, verbal insults and possibly more.  My point being I employed a thick skin to survive that initial in between phase.  You have to keep telling yourself "Things will get better" and keep moving forward.

And you don't have to pass completely.  That is a myth as illustrated by what I said above about natals.  You only need to get your appearance to fall somewhere within female norms.  Mannerisms and voice are also very important.  I'm not a runway model by a longshot.  In fact I'm pretty plain looking and that's the key.  I'm so nondescript I blend right in.

I agree with you Marlene. I have a natal female friend who is 6'2 and has large hands, large feet, and a deep voice. She's constantly being questioned about whether she's trans. It doesn't bug her, though, because she shrugs it off and carries on.

Yet I have another friend, also natal female, who's 6'1 and it does bug her. It rules her life almost. She seems obsessed with people not thinking she's trans. Loving husband, great kids, good life. It bothers her that she has to shop in shops that transwomen shop at and that people keep thinking she's trans.

People will often take you as you present. And your life is what you make it. I think when I posted previously, I hadn't thought about those two women, both of whom were born female, and neither of them passes consistently for female. Tall women get both sides of it. Sometimes seen as very attractive, sometimes questioned about their genetics. If you can carry off what Megan (first woman) does, then you can live, whether questioned or not. It's not an easy thing to do though.

Dennis

Quote from: Rachael on December 18, 2007, 05:57:32 AM
You just need to pass... this world isnt, and for a long time to come, WONT accept transpeople as just like natal men and woman. time to live in here and now.

I do live Here and Now. Very much so in fact. And in my experience, this simply isn't true - at least not as a blanket, universal statement for everyone, everywhere, and *especially* not for me. Although I guess "just like natal men and woman" is very much open for interpretation, especially for anyone with a need for justification and fighting self-doubts about being "real."

Obviously, some people will treat non-passing TSs differently. But some people will treat fat women differently, short men differently, on and on. Are we REALLY suffering such a "special" trauma if we're treated different because of our history? Or is it just OUR particular baggage, our challenge?

A LOT of people now know I was born male. And those same people just do NOT care. I'm just Kate to them, a girl. It took time for people who knew me from before to begin seeing me this way, but it DID change. And I constantly marvel at how easily NEW people just see a woman. They've only known me as Kate, so my past is just a curiousity for them... but that past doesn't change who I am NOW to them.

The people of this world are suffering their OWN problems and challenges, many of them faaaar worse than this little GID thing we put on such a pedestal of pain. And if we give those people half a chance, stop demonizing them as the "Community" seems hell-bent on doing, realize that we're ALL in this life thing together, us with our problems and they with theirs... people might surprise you with how amazingly wonderful they can be.

It's not The Public that needs to get over it, it's US.

~Kate~