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Dr. Michael C. Haben's triple VFS procedure

Started by runaway, September 19, 2015, 01:47:22 AM

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iKate

Quote from: Roni on October 20, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
I think I might make an appointment with an ENT to have my chords checked and make sure I have healed properly before resuming speaking. Does anybody know if I am able to go to just any ENT? Do I just go into my appointment asking to have pictures of my vocal folds taken?

Yes, pretty much. Dana (Dana88) did that. I have an appointment soon to do that as well as Dr Kim recommended a follow up. Just pics of the surgical site would suffice. I got a referral from my primary doc.
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iKate

Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 22, 2015, 02:36:52 AMI wonder what Yeson's policy is on revisions. If I recall, they own the center where the surgery itself takes place? Maybe I'm wrong on that?

I think they guarantee you for a year. Don't quote me on that though.
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isleeplikeacat

#82
12 month of warranty? Even 1 would have been nice.

Before I dare speak again, I will try to go see a local ENT in 3 weeks. I promise I will post an update.

In the meantime, I will be out of the forum.

I told you all everything I could. Just be extremely cautious.

By the way, I have just found something I wish I had been told: the suggested 1 week rest is "empiric", as in "we don't know but it seems to work ok". Yeson recommends 1 month, and Remacle insists on at least 15 days, reminding that it is empiric on http://facialfeminization.eu/body-voice-procedures/wendler-glottoplasty-for-voice-feminization/

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runaway

Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:


Side:


Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!
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jollyjoy

Sounds very good Runaway! Your healing is so fast compared to mine. I still sound quite hoarse after 4 weeks. Hopefully that will go away with time since Dr. Haben said it would take up to 12 weeks to hear the final results.
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Dena

For 5 weeks the voice sounds good. The pitch combined with the accent sounds feminine and interesting. I know the voice is still a bit rough but that will get better as time goes on. Be careful not to over use it again until you have had a bit more healing.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
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Elaine S

Quote from: runaway on October 24, 2015, 06:22:59 PM
Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:


Side:


Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!

Thank you for posting the update. To my ear, your voice sounds excellent. I'd consider it a MAJOR success if I get near your result. Do continue to take it easy. It is really difficult but probably best to be cautious for a while yet. Congratulations also on the CTA scar healing. It looks quite smooth and it will fade to nothingness in short order I bet.

As I am not totally familiar with the CTA "adherence" with the thyroid cartelege issue can you elaborate on any daily or more often massage techniques or movements to help with it. Do you feel it causes any "hitch" in the range of your beautiful new voice? I couldn't detect anything, but just thought I would ask... It's always good and reassuring to have more insight into the process even though you, and others, have posted such concise and comprehensive updates.

I may end up with having this done when I am there in Dec. I am planning on it and have got my mind around the idea already. At this point, I'd say that unless there is CERTAINTY it is in no way needed, I will have the procedure done. Just have to wait and see though...

Please be safe and feel the warm wishes from many and our collective happiness for you. Thank you again for the well written update and the photographs.

Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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kwala

Quote from: runaway on October 24, 2015, 06:22:59 PM
Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:


Side:


Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!

Sounding good!  I think with a bit more healing the raspy quality will disappear and you'll be left with nothing but a beautiful, clear, feminine voice.
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Greeneyes

Thanks for the update! This is making me very excited for my surgery in November. I hope so much that I can be lucky enough to get a similar result to yours. You sound great!


~Evelyn
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Roni

I would do ANYTHING for your voice results! Congratulations!!

It doesn't seem like I'll be experiencing much of a pitch increase, from the voice samples I have been recording. I know I'm only 10 days post op, but as of right now I am a tad bit disappointed. If anything I probably only went up 10 Hz.
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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Roni

Quote from: jollyjoy on October 24, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Sounds very good Runaway! Your healing is so fast compared to mine. I still sound quite hoarse after 4 weeks. Hopefully that will go away with time since Dr. Haben said it would take up to 12 weeks to hear the final results.

I sound very hoarse too. In fact, a lot more hoarse than you were in your 1 week post op recording. =\ The fact that you're still hoarse after a month isn't giving me too much hope on recovering as fast as Runaway either.
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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Dena

Quote from: Roni on October 25, 2015, 12:40:47 AM
I would do ANYTHING for your voice results! Congratulations!!

It doesn't seem like I'll be experiencing much of a pitch increase, from the voice samples I have been recording. I know I'm only 10 days post op, but as of right now I am a tad bit disappointed. If anything I probably only went up 10 Hz.
At 10 days it's hard to tell anything. Also bone conduction really messes up your sense of your voice. I never thought my voice was as low as it was but measuring my voice with frequency meters told me another story. My voice was about as low as it could go. If Dr Haben told you how much your tie was, that will give you an idea. Mine was 40% of the longer cord or about 50% of the shorter one and that may have pushed my voice about 80 Hz.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
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Roni

Quote from: Dena on October 25, 2015, 01:05:10 AM
At 10 days it's hard to tell anything. Also bone conduction really messes up your sense of your voice. I never thought my voice was as low as it was but measuring my voice with frequency meters told me another story. My voice was about as low as it could go. If Dr Haben told you how much your tie was, that will give you an idea. Mine was 40% of the longer cord or about 50% of the shorter one and that may have pushed my voice about 80 Hz.

I seem to have lost a "standard" natural speaking voice pre-op. I think I was so used to increasing my pitch all the time, I didn't know what constituted as natural anymore. For all I know my pitch could have increased but because I was able to bring my pitch to the 240 Hz range (according to Dr Haben), any increases in my natural voice just doesn't seem all that noticeable. Oh well. I really hope you are right Dena. I'll see in a couple weeks.

Also I let out a pretty nasty and loud cough earlier (couldn't control it), and ever since then my chords/throat have been throbbing REALLY bad and I'm hoping I didn't damage my stitches. So far the girls who have done damage to their stitches have reported a 2-3 out of 10 on the pain scale when they ripped their chords. Unfortunately that doesn't help me much because I have a high pain tolerance. Right now it just feels like I have the beginning of a sore throat. I will find out at the ENT next week if I have done any damage to my stitches..
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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runaway

Thanks for the compliments, everyone! I really appreciate all the positivity. :) Most of the time, my voice is quite raspy due to the constant accumulation of phlegm, so the recording was actually my third attempt, and it went back to being raspy and gurgly from all the phlegm right after. :D

Elaine: The incision site where my scar is, was stuck to my thyroid cartilage, such that swallowing or raising my pitch would pull up on the skin of my neck. Cadence reported some adhesion in her case, that resolved on its own. Dr. Haben recommended neck rolls and massaging the incision with a hot towel for 20 minutes, three times a day.

I've been doing that as much as possible, and just moving the skin around whenever my hands are free. I'm not sure if that helped, or if it's been unsticking itself on its own as the area heals.

Right now, the adhesion is broken up enough that it doesn't cause any noticeable discomfort, so I'm not too worried. Now that it's healed up better, I've also been more vigorous and forceful with the massaging. :D

Roni: Right after my first week of voice rest was over, my pitch was actually around 160hz which was easily achievable pre-op. This was because I had to push it low to avoid strain and irritation, and also because I hadn't used a trained voice in public, so my brain was still locked onto my old pitch, so this is what you may be observing except your brain is locked onto your trained pitch.

However, remember that it's really not just about the pitch increase. If it was, we would all just speak in a Bee Gees "Staying Alive"-esque falsetto and call it done, no? ;)

The difference you'll probably notice, is that accidental noises such as throat clearing, coughing, sighing, will sound very different. Even at the same pitches achievable pre and post op, the aural qualities of your voice will be different.

This is a matter of physics, not opinion!

Example: On a tuned acoustic/classical guitar, the 10th fret on the low E string will produce the same pitch as the D string, but any experienced guitarist can tell the difference with his/her eyes closed, due to the different aural qualities of an effectively shorter thicker string (10th fret low E), and a longer thinner string (D string).

Unlike your pre-op voice, it should be mostly effortless on your part. I say mostly effortless, because I had to retrain my brain to use my new instrument.

In my case, pushing my pitch down was actually far more strenuous than simply speaking at a comfortable pitch, but that was what my brain wanted to do. In your case, I guess you'll have to untrain and retrain your voice at the same time.

Keeping with the instrument analogy:
Pre-op: I had a cello, you had a viola, and we both wanted to sound like a violin. I was unable to, you were through training.
Post-op: We both have violins. My brain still wanted to sound like a cello, so I have to train it to play a violin now. Your brain was already trained to sound like a violin, and you were able to pre and post op.
The difference is now you'll sound like a violin, without having to finger the strings halfway up the fretboard.

The odd thing is, my new comfortable pitch of 235hz still sounds the same to me as it did when it was about 200hz. What I did was to memorize my throat/thyroid position when using my comfortable pitch. Ideally, from a rested position, your comfortable pitch should entail no movement of your thyroid cartilage whatsoever.

As the surgical laryngitis has gone down, my pitch has gradually gone up without any conscious effort on my part. Kinda like how a string instrument increases its pitch as the ambient temperature goes down, or humidity changes! :)

So as your voice heals and the swelling goes down, your maximum pitch will also increase. I was up to 520hz (barely a whisper) more than a week ago, which went down to 400hz after my voice overuse last week, and this morning it was up to 690hz. Keep in mind though, my voice is unusable at those higher pitches currently, but I expect that to improve as it heals.

Try this:

From a rested thyroid position, put your hand on your throat and feel your thyroid cartilage, then go from your lowest pitch to your highest pitch. At the same position it was when it was rested, is where you want it to be. This is your new comfortable pitch. Pre-op, the same pitch would only have been achievable by moving your thyroid up into your jawbone.

I hope this makes sense, and that you find it helpful. Sorry for the word vomit!

By the way I had more than a few coughing fits in my first week post-op, and I even had small amounts of blood in my phlegm, so your sutures are probably fine. ;D
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warmbody28

its been a while since i have been in the voice section. Im so glad so many of you are going to Dr Haben. easiest recovery ever and the results tend to be good. i recently had a cold and still sounded good.
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Roni

Runaway, that was actually VERY useful for me! Thank you SO much for that! :)

Basically when it comes to finding my comfortable pitch, I should just rest my thyroid cartilage in its natural position, correct? Whereas pre-op I would have had to "raise" my cartilage to increase my pitch in order to attain trained voice. Now that my voice has been tuned to sound like a violin, I no longer have to raise my cartilage? I hope I understood that correctly.

Edit: I have had no form of voice training and actually had no idea how I would attain my trained voice.. I just kinda knew how to do it without regard to the movement of my thyroid cartilage (in fact I had to google where the cartilage was located in my neck lmao). Now I seem to know exactly how to change my pitch in relation to the cartilage.
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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Roni

Oh and thanks for reassuring me about the coughing. If you've ended up with an amazing voice result like that despite all the coughing,'I've just become a little bit more optimistic about my voice.
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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iKate

Yes, the feminine color of the voice is much more than just Fo. Remember your voice isn't producing a pure sine wave. It is producing harmonics and undertones as well. Truth be told I can talk below 200Hz if I wanted to. I have a few times but it has never ever clocked me. In fact being a bit more mature in age I tend to not talk with a high voice.
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Elaine S

Quote from: runaway on October 25, 2015, 03:28:07 AM
Thanks for the compliments, everyone! I really appreciate all the positivity. :) Most of the time, my voice is quite raspy due to the constant accumulation of phlegm, so the recording was actually my third attempt, and it went back to being raspy and gurgly from all the phlegm right after. :D

Elaine: The incision site where my scar is, was stuck to my thyroid cartilage, such that swallowing or raising my pitch would pull up on the skin of my neck. Cadence reported some adhesion in her case, that resolved on its own. Dr. Haben recommended neck rolls and massaging the incision with a hot towel for 20 minutes, three times a day.

I've been doing that as much as possible, and just moving the skin around whenever my hands are free. I'm not sure if that helped, or if it's been unsticking itself on its own as the area heals.

Right now, the adhesion is broken up enough that it doesn't cause any noticeable discomfort, so I'm not too worried. Now that it's healed up better, I've also been more vigorous and forceful with the massaging. :D

Roni: Right after my first week of voice rest was over, my pitch was actually around 160hz which was easily achievable pre-op. This was because I had to push it low to avoid strain and irritation, and also because I hadn't used a trained voice in public, so my brain was still locked onto my old pitch, so this is what you may be observing except your brain is locked onto your trained pitch.

However, remember that it's really not just about the pitch increase. If it was, we would all just speak in a Bee Gees "Staying Alive"-esque falsetto and call it done, no? ;)

The difference you'll probably notice, is that accidental noises such as throat clearing, coughing, sighing, will sound very different. Even at the same pitches achievable pre and post op, the aural qualities of your voice will be different.

This is a matter of physics, not opinion!

Example: On a tuned acoustic/classical guitar, the 10th fret on the low E string will produce the same pitch as the D string, but any experienced guitarist can tell the difference with his/her eyes closed, due to the different aural qualities of an effectively shorter thicker string (10th fret low E), and a longer thinner string (D string).

Unlike your pre-op voice, it should be mostly effortless on your part. I say mostly effortless, because I had to retrain my brain to use my new instrument.

In my case, pushing my pitch down was actually far more strenuous than simply speaking at a comfortable pitch, but that was what my brain wanted to do. In your case, I guess you'll have to untrain and retrain your voice at the same time.

Keeping with the instrument analogy:
Pre-op: I had a cello, you had a viola, and we both wanted to sound like a violin. I was unable to, you were through training.
Post-op: We both have violins. My brain still wanted to sound like a cello, so I have to train it to play a violin now. Your brain was already trained to sound like a violin, and you were able to pre and post op.
The difference is now you'll sound like a violin, without having to finger the strings halfway up the fretboard.

The odd thing is, my new comfortable pitch of 235hz still sounds the same to me as it did when it was about 200hz. What I did was to memorize my throat/thyroid position when using my comfortable pitch. Ideally, from a rested position, your comfortable pitch should entail no movement of your thyroid cartilage whatsoever.

As the surgical laryngitis has gone down, my pitch has gradually gone up without any conscious effort on my part. Kinda like how a string instrument increases its pitch as the ambient temperature goes down, or humidity changes! :)

So as your voice heals and the swelling goes down, your maximum pitch will also increase. I was up to 520hz (barely a whisper) more than a week ago, which went down to 400hz after my voice overuse last week, and this morning it was up to 690hz. Keep in mind though, my voice is unusable at those higher pitches currently, but I expect that to improve as it heals.

Try this:

From a rested thyroid position, put your hand on your throat and feel your thyroid cartilage, then go from your lowest pitch to your highest pitch. At the same position it was when it was rested, is where you want it to be. This is your new comfortable pitch. Pre-op, the same pitch would only have been achievable by moving your thyroid up into your jawbone.

I hope this makes sense, and that you find it helpful. Sorry for the word vomit!

By the way I had more than a few coughing fits in my first week post-op, and I even had small amounts of blood in my phlegm, so your sutures are probably fine. ;D

Runaway:

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such detail to several questions. Your descriptions make perfect sense to me and the guitar/stringed instrument is a great analogy. Very nice write up.

Be safe and enjoy the day.
Elaine
"Live up to your potential rather than down to others expectations"
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jollyjoy

That recording was 2 weeks though, not 1 week. After 1 week, my voice was VERY hoarse. I got really worried and anxious about the hoarseness 2 days ago, and Dr. Haben told me patience is the key during recovery, both hoarseness and pitch can take upto 3 month to get to the final result. So I'm really hoping the hoarseness with go away with time and I'm learning to have more patience with the recovery, because I discovered that patience is not one of my personality traits lol.

Quote from: Roni on October 25, 2015, 12:43:00 AM
I sound very hoarse too. In fact, a lot more hoarse than you were in your 1 week post op recording. =\ The fact that you're still hoarse after a month isn't giving me too much hope on recovering as fast as Runaway either.
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