Hello, wonderful girls.

(Sorry for my English but I'm italian...)

I want to ask to those girls who did Voice Feminization Surgery (with Dr. Kim or Haben), if they can sing and how their singing voices have changed.

Male voice has a "zona di passaggio" (transition zone) from chest voice to head voice that lies between C4 - A4 and in female voices lies between D5 and G5.


I want to know if the Voice Feminization Surgery can change the "male zona di passaggio" in "female zona di passaggio" and if it can extend the vocal range.
I sing and I want to be a singer, a FEMALE SINGER. That's why I want to know if VFS can help me with singing in a female voice, not only for the pitch.

Your English is just fine. Never worry about that here.

I haven't had the surgery. But I do have the impression that you will decrease the range of your voice with the surgery. So if you can hit a low C (typical bass) and high E (just above middle C which some basses can hit) You will raise your pitch by a few tones and decimate your lower range.

If you sing professionally, try using a pitch modulator instead so that you can sing in your normal range but the electronics will boost you an octave. I have heard some stunning results from these devices. You can sound perfectly female.

You won't be performing Traviata but you'll fit in just fine with Death Zone.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on November 05, 2015, 11:12:24 AM
Your English is just fine. Never worry about that here.

I haven't had the surgery. But I do have the impression that you will decrease the range of your voice with the surgery. So if you can hit a low C (typical bass) and high E (just above middle C which some basses can hit) You will raise your pitch by a few tones and decimate your lower range.

If you sing professionally, try using a pitch modulator instead so that you can sing in your normal range but the electronics will boost you an octave. I have heard some stunning results from these devices. You can sound perfectly female.

You won't be performing Traviata but you'll fit in just fine with Death Zone.

Cindi

Awww, thank you the advice, sweetheart!


Okay, losing low notes isn't a bad thing. I can hit D2/D#2, so I don't care if I will lose 4/5 notes in the lower range.
But I can't go higher than G#4, and if I will gain 2/3 notes, it means that the zona di passaggio won't change... and this is a bad thing.

I dreamt of being a female singer with a powerful voice, with a wide range, but I think that I have to deal with the fact that I can't change my voice as much as I thought.

I knew I should not have used the word decimate. Here in the USA, it also means to destroy. I'd like someone who has had the surgery to jump in here and tell us just how many full tones have been lost in the vocal range after surgery. I know you are out there! I'm thinking a full octave or more?

Cindi

Hi , I am not a singer, but I know three singers who had the Yeson surgery. One Is Jamie (she also did a Yeson interview on the Yeson Youtube), the other is Amy from Berlin and the third one is from the Rhine area in Germany. I know that Jamie and Amy are very happy about their voices in general, but I cannot say how it is in detail in respect to singing. The third person I know of has a persostent issue with diplophonia since the surgery. She still sounds fine when singing but says she lost a lot of vocal range and has those diplophonia issues at higher and more powerful notes.

Again I am not a singer but my experience was so far that the passagio does not change at all (AFAIK this is also what others , especially Amy said) in terms of pitch, but it can become less definied - more fluid - the difference in the chest and head voice become more blurred. I had a vocal range from 82 Hz to 880 Hz before the surgery and now it is down to about 110 to 750 Hz. So I lost a few deminotes at both ends. What also is happening now is that in the upper pitch range I am having a harder time - I loose more air, I tense up more and it sounds less good than before. But this may possibly still be healing and it may possibly be trained out again. On the upside of it all, my voice is now far better in the medium range - lets say the range of G3 to G4 - I can sing somewhat in that range even, but since I am not a good singer it just is enough for campfire songs .

I believe surgery or no surgery - the right vocal technique will go a far way in terms of getting a good feminine singing voice. There are some men who developed very powerful female singing voices even, showing that it has not always to do with the vocal fold length. Conversely others had the surgery and have trouble to sound really feminine in speaking or singing even at that higher pitch.

But maybe others can chip in here who know how to sing. I know however that Dr Kim also does surgeries on singers - also trans singers. So it is possible, but I do not know how much autotune those singers use afterwards

Quote from: Catwoman on November 05, 2015, 10:12:57 AM
Hello, wonderful girls.

(Sorry for my English but I'm italian...)

I want to ask to those girls who did Voice Feminization Surgery (with Dr. Kim or Haben), if they can sing and how their singing voices have changed.

Male voice has a "zona di passaggio" (transition zone) from chest voice to head voice that lies between C4 - A4 and in female voices lies between D5 and G5.


I want to know if the Voice Feminization Surgery can change the "male zona di passaggio" in "female zona di passaggio" and if it can extend the vocal range.
I sing and I want to be a singer, a FEMALE SINGER. That's why I want to know if VFS can help me with singing in a female voice, not only for the pitch.

Like Anja said, most of the singers here have reported that the break area stays the same, but since your chest voice is somewhat lighter, and the upper chest voice notes are easier to produce that the transition to head voice is less obvious or less abrupt. 

I am somewhat of an amateur singer, but I am a professional instrumentalist.  Currently I am only two weeks into recovery and I won't even begin to think about singing for a few months, but I know exactly where my voice broke before, for which ranges I could use chest, mix, or head voices and I will be more than happy to report how that's changed when my voice has settled.

Recently, Dana recorded an audio clip belting as high as C5 and reported a change in where her voice breaks. 

Also Cristal posted a video of her first singing attempt that sounded very good.  If you do a little digging on the forum here you should be able to find these files

Since apparently some posts have been lost in some hickup, I will repost them:

Anjaq wrote:

Quote
Be aware of the two different surgeries though - glottaplasty will not shift the passagio much, make the transition somewhat less audible, especially with proper training and will take away a bit of vocal range. CTA reduces vocal range more and it does change the passagio. I still do not know how exactly but in theory the passagio should be gone with CTA because the passagio occurs when two muscles that control pitch give control over to each other because each muscle is responsible for a different pitch range. Essentially with CTA, one of the two muscles is inactivated(and set to "maximum tension") and this is the reason for the reduced vocal range, the higher pitch and it should eliminate the passagio, but it also is said to not be suitable for singers because the muscle that is inactivated plays a big role in singing.

Catwoman wrote:

Quote
Thank you so much! ❤️

I noticed that the VFS works better with TENOR voices (maybe I'm wrong 'cause I didn't listen to all the recordings).

Your middle range was G3-G4 even before VFS? Were you a tenor?

Catwoman said:

Quote

QuoteQuote from: kwala on Yesterday at 22:30:28
Like Anja said, most of the singers here have reported that the break area stays the same, but since your chest voice is somewhat lighter, and the upper chest voice notes are easier to produce that the transition to head voice is less obvious or less abrupt. 

I am somewhat of an amateur singer, but I am a professional instrumentalist.  Currently I am only two weeks into recovery and I won't even begin to think about singing for a few months, but I know exactly where my voice broke before, for which ranges I could use chest, mix, or head voices and I will be more than happy to report how that's changed when my voice has settled.

Recently, Dana recorded an audio clip belting as high as C5 and reported a change in where her voice breaks. 

Also Cristal posted a video of her first singing attempt that sounded very good.  If you do a little digging on the forum here you should be able to find these files

I read that the "passaggio" depends on the size of the larynx and its vocal ligaments (but I'm not really sure about it), so how can passaggio change with VFS?

I listened to Dana's and Cristal's recordings, I like them!!! Dana's singing voice is incredible.

catwoman wrote:

Quote

Quote
Quote from: anjaq on Today at 12:08:22
Be aware of the two different surgeries though - glottaplasty will not shift the passagio much, make the transition somewhat less audible, especially with proper training and will take away a bit of vocal range. CTA reduces vocal range more and it does change the passagio. I still do not know how exactly but in theory the passagio should be gone with CTA because the passagio occurs when two muscles that control pitch give control over to each other because each muscle is responsible for a different pitch range. Essentially with CTA, one of the two muscles is inactivated(and set to "maximum tension") and this is the reason for the reduced vocal range, the higher pitch and it should eliminate the passagio, but it also is said to not be suitable for singers because the muscle that is inactivated plays a big role in singing.

Glottoplasty would be the best surgery for a singer.

Thank you so much x2.

*Dreaming about stem cells that change the vocal apparatus*

Anjaq wrote:

Quote

QuoteQuote from: Catwoman on Today at 19:45:12
I noticed that the VFS works better with TENOR voices (maybe I'm wrong 'cause I didn't listen to all the recordings).
Your middle range was G3-G4 even before VFS? Were you a tenor?

No way! This is my "best voice" range post OP now. Before the surgery it was probaly about A2-G3. And I could easily go down to G2, so I believe I was probably a Bariton - maybe a low Bariton? And now I am probably an Alto voice... not sure though. I think I will try singing lessons next year to see if I can learn singing now - I never wanted to do that with my old voice.

QuoteQuote from: Catwoman on Today at 19:55:19
I read that the "passaggio" depends on the size of the larynx and its vocal ligaments (but I'm not really sure about it), so how can passaggio change with VFS?

I do not believe it can. Except with CTA which changes the passagio because it basically eliminates that voice break coming from the muscles. Glottoplasty can probably not change the voice break - and if yo only minimally - some people said it changed for them by a small bit, but essentially you are stuck with the passagio, just it becomes less noticeable. Its not breaking from belting in chest voice into a thin falsetto voice - its more like going from a mixed chest voice with some head voice qualities into full head voice which can still be very resonant and powerful. But this IS possible without surgery as well, it is more a matter of training than of surgery. However I dare to say that surgery might make it easier to reach those higher pitches, but it might as well make some pitches less "clean" and harder to control...

But you are right - for singers, definitely the glottoplasty would be the best choice of surgery, CTA does limit the voice too much and lagyngoplasty does too much damage. I don't know about laser tuning though - but as it causes scars on the vocal folds, I dooubt it is a great idea.

Thanks, for the reposts, Anja.  Not sure what happened there.

When I asked Dr. Haben about range and vocal breaks, he seemed to think that those who gain range or feel that their break has shifted were probably able to reach those pitches before, but were unaware because they hadn't trained their voices to produce sound in those ranges.  He seems to think that it's not that the surgery gives you notes that your old voice could not produce, just that they are easier to access with your new voice.  I'm pretty sure this is the case with most patients, but everyone's voice and vocal apparatus are different so I wouldn't totally discount the possibility of true range extension either.

I've been thinking a lot these days and I know that I can't do anything to sound like a girl when I sing.


With the surgery, the singing voice sound like a man speaking with falsetto because it doesn't change all the things that make a sound, but only the vocal folds.

I think I'm gonna cry. Singing is the only thing that makes me happy and I want to make it my future job.

Don't cry... Contrary to many beliefs, a "break" (or "passagio") in female voices isn't that much higher than it is in male voices. Passagio of a high tenor voice is about on the same note as a passagio of low alto voice. However, how a singer approaches this break, is very different. Partly because of anatomy and vocal apparatus as a whole, but partly also because how we have learned to use our voice. It's about unlearning the male pattern (in this case of MTF singer), and learning the aspects of female singing. This is up to you, and this is what you can change. You can't change the size of your throat, or the shape of your mouth cavity... but a glottoplasty surgery can alter the length of larynx, which can be additionally to altered base speaking frequency, benefitial for lighter quality of your voice, which seems like it should be instantly helpful for singing in and around the area of passagio. But there are no guarantees and promises with this kind of surgery, that you will come out as having more feminine singing voice. It will likely reduce the volume and power to some extent... and if you are now easily able to sing above passagio area with strength and power (for example if you are classically trained opera singer, or you are a trained rock singer), that will likely be gone, as you wont have the same capability to produce that kind of powerful voice (99+% of women also dont have that kind of power.. but its just something to keep in mind..).

Here it's very nicely described and demonstrated (the above mentioned difference) 

I am not a professional singer but I am finding that I can sing contralto and sound completely feminine doing it. I can sing along to Rihanna for example, but not her really high notes.

However going higher my voice tends to have a hard stop. This is smoothing out though. I am only 4-5 months post op. I find that doing the exercises helps a lot. I try to push it higher and higher each time, which incidentally is what I had to do with my old (male) voice even to sing in church...

I must say that I had an awful sounding voice even before VFS, even for a male.

Quote from: Lagertha on November 16, 2015, 11:17:19 AM
Don't cry... Contrary to many beliefs, a "break" (or "passagio") in female voices isn't that much higher than it is in male voices. Passagio of a high tenor voice is about on the same note as a passagio of low alto voice. However, how a singer approaches this break, is very different. Partly because of anatomy and vocal apparatus as a whole, but partly also because how we have learned to use our voice. It's about unlearning the male pattern (in this case of MTF singer), and learning the aspects of female singing. This is up to you, and this is what you can change. You can't change the size of your throat, or the shape of your mouth cavity... but a glottoplasty surgery can alter the length of larynx, which can be additionally to altered base speaking frequency, benefitial for lighter quality of your voice, which seems like it should be instantly helpful for singing in and around the area of passagio. But there are no guarantees and promises with this kind of surgery, that you will come out as having more feminine singing voice. It will likely reduce the volume and power to some extent... and if you are now easily able to sing above passagio area with strength and power (for example if you are classically trained opera singer, or you are a trained rock singer), that will likely be gone, as you wont have the same capability to produce that kind of powerful voice (99+% of women also dont have that kind of power.. but its just something to keep in mind..).

Here it's very nicely described and demonstrated (the above mentioned difference) 

The "passaggio" isn't the only thing that makes me sad.
I'm sad because I know that I can't sing like a girl and now I think that I can't reach my goals. I want to write songs, to sing them and perform them on a stage, maybe without seeing people say "WT*?! A GIRL WITH A MALE VOICE?".

The surgery can't help the voice to become feminine: yes, the voice will sound "higher and lighter" but the quality isn't really good.

Anyway, thank you for the help and the video. I find it very interesting!!!!

Quote from: iKate on November 16, 2015, 02:22:05 PM
I am not a professional singer but I am finding that I can sing contralto and sound completely feminine doing it. I can sing along to Rihanna for example, but not her really high notes.

However going higher my voice tends to have a hard stop. This is smoothing out though. I am only 4-5 months post op. I find that doing the exercises helps a lot. I try to push it higher and higher each time, which incidentally is what I had to do with my old (male) voice even to sing in church...

I must say that I had an awful sounding voice even before VFS, even for a male.

Mmmmmh, interesting. You can't sing her high notes because the surgery can't add notes to your vocal range, it only increase the pitch.

I think you should post a recording of your singing voice: I'm really curious

Catwoman, I wouldn't be so easily discouraged!  There are many people who have trained their voices to sing this way, and it may be possible for you but it might take a *LOT* of work.  If I were you, I would first look into finding a singing instructor who is on the same page and will try to help you sing the way you want to.  A lot of old school vocal coaches won't go against what they feel is a student's "natural" voice type but there are many who will.  The key is thinking outside the box and making sounds you didn't think your voice box could make to wake up different muscles and coordinations.  The right voice teacher can help you unlock these and then who knows what may be possible, though it will undoubtedly take a lot of time and hard work. 

As far as surgery, you may want to get in touch with some of the girls here who have sung after VFS like AmyBerlin, Dana, and Cristal and see what changes and improvements they experience over time.

I sang as a hobby only before surgery and I will surely sing again when I'm able to (only 3.5 weeks into recovery) so I'll be happy to share my findings but I probably won't be doing any singing until early 2016 when my voice has stabilized.

ETA:  I should have mentioned that my singing voice before was in the Mezzo Soprano range.  Before I began my transition I was a tenor but I learned to mix my voice (wasn't easy) and while I wouldn't say I was ever the greatest singer alive I could belt high notes all the way up to Bb5.   I honestly have no idea what effects this glottoplasty will have on my mix and I'm curious to find out but I'm not even able to really speak at the moment so it's going to be at least two more months before I start singing.

I know nothing about the surgery, but I do know voices
your dreams are not lost, remember not all girls have high voices or huge ranges. I'm batteling with this myself, I was a singer in a band for years with a super low scratchy voice and now with my changes I'm after a more female sounding voice, I have been pushing myself to sing higher, but I'm finding that changing the tone, using more breath and softening my voice has a more feminizing effect than just the pitch.

best of luck
xox, Candi

P.S. and when I get depressed about it I listen to Nico singing "the end".

Quote from: Catwoman on November 16, 2015, 02:35:51 PM

The "passaggio" isn't the only thing that makes me sad.
I'm sad because I know that I can't sing like a girl and now I think that I can't reach my goals. I want to write songs, to sing them and perform them on a stage, maybe without seeing people say "WT*?! A GIRL WITH A MALE VOICE?".

The surgery can't help the voice to become feminine: yes, the voice will sound "higher and lighter" but the quality isn't really good.

Anyway, thank you for the help and the video. I find it very interesting!!!!

You can't work at it and find YOUR way around it. You won't be able to change (with today's surgery) where passagio is, but you can develop feminine sounding singing voice. It's fair to say you won't be ever able to sing like Mariah Carey, but you can sing like noone else can in your own way. And you can write songs that bring the best out of your voice.

I have developed through years quite feminine sounding singing voice (no surgery help) in the low and middle range. I cannot make my high range with full-voice sound convincingly feminine no matter what I do or try. In the end I think my throat and larynx are just a bit too large and robust to allow me to produce full, but feminine sounding, tones above passagio. I work my way around it with using much more softer (and much quieter also) voice which I bring up from the middle range. 

Quote from: Catwoman on November 16, 2015, 02:41:19 PM
Mmmmmh, interesting. You can't sing her high notes because the surgery can't add notes to your vocal range, it only increase the pitch.

I think you should post a recording of your singing voice: I'm really curious

Sure. I'll try to record something when I get to an actual computer.

The timbre of the voice is very different now which is why it sounds more feminine.

I'll probably sound like an American idol contestant (not a good one lol) but I'll give it a shot.

Here's a short sample. I'm not a professional singer and about 4 1/2 months post op so it's probably out of tune and not very good. It's just a random song I picked that I sometimes sing to the kids.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Awgskkknbo

You can hear where I was struggling around G4 I think it was. I can't go much higher than that right now, however with exercises my range is slowly but steadily going up. I am hoping I can at least sing properly sooner or later.

Thank you so much, girls.

I can't explain how I'm feeling but... this is me now: http://media2.giphy.com/media/rPfzAQByRB5Is/giphy.gif

You make me stronger, happier and more confident.

QuoteHere's a short sample. I'm not a professional singer and about 4 1/2 months post op so it's probably out of tune and not very good. It's just a random song I picked that I sometimes sing to the kids.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Awgskkknbo

You can hear where I was struggling around G4 I think it was. I can't go much higher than that right now, however with exercises my range is slowly but steadily going up. I am hoping I can at least sing properly sooner or later.

What a great voice! 
I think that you can't go higher because you have to re-educate your voice!

Quote from: Catwoman on November 19, 2015, 12:11:29 PM

What a great voice! 
I think that you can't go higher because you have to re-educate your voice!

Thanks.

I really do want to develop it, but for now it sorta works. I think once my VFS fully heals (like 1 year) I will be in a much better position.