Again topic.  I can't answer all your questions but I know I'm lucky to pass. Anytime I need to find a job in my career it's not hard to find employment. I only know this because my job would never hire someone who they knew was trans. (I can't wait to find a new company). Passing does seem to make things and life easier but you do sometimes feel like your in hiding. I know a few other girls with passing privilege.


Mod Edit- making it seem like one group is less deriving of being around because of who they are is against TOS 9 and 10.

 
Okay foks. Lets please not take other posters posts personally or attack them for questions and statements they make. Considering these threads tend to head nowhere good consider this your one and only warning before I locked for good. Please keep in mind TOS 5, 9, 10, and 15. Thank You
Mariah

Also don't forget TOS 7. If you have an issue with a post please report it to us rather than telling people what to or not to say on these forums. It is suppose to be open and welcome and all and you should feel free to be able to say what you need to within the rules. Thanks
Mariah

I have passing privilege but honestly I just wish everyone could go about their business and not worry about passing.

I don't necessarily subscribe to "cis" terminology usage, except in many cases of convenience (to make clear I mean non-trans) -- but I totally support trans folks who choose to do so. And I reject the idea of passing as a goal, even though I understand the safety and wellbeing aspects of it in the present day, because of rampant transphobia. All that said, I think that *all* passing is essentially "cis-passing." The whole concept of passing only exists in relation to some sort of cis standard. Which is why "passing" is a privilege. Our little slice of cis-privilege for those of us who have it.

I know people are well intentioned and as humans we use language to convey Ideas, that said, I think there is a serious flaw in the use of the word. To me there seems such an opportunity for abuse. I remember past discussions about this subject made me aware of the divergent thinking of the meaning of "passing". I for myself consider passing as not having things thrown at you while walking down the street. Others consider passing as looking like the  twin sister of
Greta Garbo(which I kind of do). I mean honestly the word " passing" is an exclusionary term. I remember when I first came to the forum I heard people say that they were so afraid of not passing even if it involved a second hand out by merely walking with someone who you can tell is transitioning whether because of time or genetics or financial reasons with the inability to have FFS. As far as my personal opinion goes , I believe everyone has the right to transition if it helps them lead a happy and healthy life. The problem with this passing nonsense is that good people get thrown under the bus because they don't fit the idea hypothetical concept of what exactly it is to "pass". I much prefer for my own sanity that people would concentrate on their mental health rather than some hypothetical supposedly objective concept of what it is to" pass". So " passing" as applied to humans, would a severely disfigured burn victim "pass" as a normal person according to this hypothetical objective definition of what an individual should look like. Yes we'd all like to be supermodels , but that's not going to happen. Do we discard the ones that don't fit the hypothetical "passing model and forbid them from transitioning because they embarrass the rest who are able to fit the box.

I think it comes down to a fight over the trans narrative.

I know I am attacked for defending Nikki Araguz in regards to a trans woman who is upset her charity focuses on passing.

I believe in passing.

It isn't hostile to say don't expect to hear ma'am if you have a beard

Quote from: Oliviah on November 14, 2015, 01:34:31 PM
I think it comes down to a fight over the trans narrative.

I know I am attacked for defending Nikki Araguz in regards to a trans woman who is upset her charity focuses on passing.

I believe in passing.

It isn't hostile to say don't expect to hear ma'am if you have a beard

I agree girl world can be cruel sometimes. People don't always understand our gender identity. But I will admit more and more people are nice enough to respect us. Just certain places you have to be careful

That's true, and I think there are plenty of open minded people who are perfectly fine with the transition process. 

However, in spite of being very open minded and supportive .... there can still be that initial bodily reaction that some people have when they "clock" one of us.  It's not necessarily a sign of hate or revulsion, simply their reaction to something they saw that conflicted with their initial expectation, and then quickly processing how to proceed.

Getting to a point where I don't see that reaction from people is definitely a goal.  However, if it isn't one that I reach, I'll be ok with that. (fair to point out, if its someone you know, or meet, you usually only have to see it once ).

Thank you all for the discussion. I have learned a lot.

One of the takeaways here is:

It's (nearly) impossible to find the right set of words or concepts that will please everyone in the trans community. Rather than assuming the way I phrase things will be acceptable to everyone, I will try to bring greater awareness to place context on the language I use.

I still think the concept of "cis-passing" is helpful because it is more precise and makes clear exactly what the word "passing" implies in its underlying connotation. I agree with Kayg that all passing is cis-passing because passing only makes sense relative to the concept of cisnormativity i.e. to pass is for people to automatically think that your gender corresponds to the gender you were assigned at birth.

To "pass" according to how you yourself interpret "passing" for your self not in relation to some contrived oblique standard.

maybe some girls feel like passing means to be beautiful like a supermodel. We all have our unique charm, like anybody else. Beauty is subjective. We should focus more on living a happy life.

There are pretty women and ugly women out there. But they are all women, so are we.

I'm sorry if my comment doesn't make much sense, haha. I had a long day.

Quote from: clarabrown on November 14, 2015, 09:01:31 PM
maybe some girls feel like passing means to be beautiful like a supermodel. We all have our unique charm, like anybody else. Beauty is subjective. We should focus more on living a happy life.

There are pretty women and ugly women out there. But they are all women, so are we.

I'm sorry if my comment doesn't make much sense, haha. I had a long day.

It makes perfect sense, and is exactly what I was alluding to in an earlier post.


If we define our self worth based on a standard of passing (or cis passing, or anything similar), we risk placing our own happiness in the hands of everyone else.


In most situations in life .... that's really bad advice.  We're supposed to concern ourselves with the things we can control, rather than the things we can't.

While we have some control over our appearance, the very concept of passing is completely subjective and entirely about what other people think.

for me the only time I want to pass or at least not stand out is late at night on deserted streets where creepy aggressive drunk men seem to hang out
my ex says no way do I pass, my sex therapist thinks I do, depending on lighting sometimes I think I do lol.

being myself and being happy is more important to me then what others think.

xox, Candi

Quote from: Candi.Krol on November 15, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
for me the only time I want to pass or at least not stand out is late at night on deserted streets where creepy aggressive drunk men seem to hang out
my ex says no way do I pass, my sex therapist thinks I do, depending on lighting sometimes I think I do lol.

being myself and being happy is more important to me then what others think.

xox, Candi

if you can be happy with yourself thats the most important thing of all. i mean look at all those movies about ladies who are pretty yet think they are ugly. the self confidence is everything. 

it's just so difficult to judge your appearance objectively and any perceived flaw gets magnified exponentially . It's difficult because basically you just want to be perceived as the proper gender and that's part of the problem because your dysphoria is entangled in that concept of looking acceptable as the proper gender. The term " passing " is understandable , but seriously flawed in how it reflects on your ability to heal yourself. I mean the word transgender is another word that people love or despise .

I believe the number of women who think they pass when they actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror, or just because you get ma'amed a couple times. Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.

I think every girl goes through it---the blind stage where they think they pass. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.

I think I am about 50% on the way to completely passing, and that is okay with me. Transition is a journey and should be enjoyed.




Edited for language. Devlyn

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
I believe the number of women who think they pass but actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror. I think every girl goes through it. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.

I so agree. when guys started holding the door open and saying Ms. then flirting thats when I knew. at first id be like ,"what kind of funny business you trying to pull? oh you want my number.."

Quote from: warmbody28 on November 16, 2015, 04:41:39 AM
I so agree. when guys started holding the door open and saying Ms. then flirting thats when I knew. at first id be like ,"what kind of funny business you trying to pull? oh you want my number.."

Yeah I would say getting asked out is generally a good indication of passing. I would be careful to say that is the case for every girl though. I know a girl who had been asked out by a guy; this girl got so happy assuming she got asked out because she passed. She then gets a text from said guy where he says he had asked for her number because he was into trans girls. It broke her heart.

Remember: in an American society of increased political correctness, sexual fluidity, and men who have generally become more open-minded, it is becoming more difficult to truly gauge your passability. The only true way to see if you pass is to come out to people and see their reaction.

Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
I take it to be not a controversial statem

(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?

In my opinion, a masculine looking woman with a very feminine voice will still pass a lot more than a pretty girl who has gotten FFS but has a masculine sounding voice. Voice is the most important for passing I think.

Roni you make some very good points. also something i had not thought about until now is people are now aware we can have FFS,GRS body contouring surgery and soon will know about voice surgery too. oh one girl at work also knew about adams apple shaving and how constructing a male penis is done. people are def catching on. but this can be a good thing.

and the weird this is I've noticed guys (at least some) really seem to be into androgyny or females with boyish bodies.