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Can we talk about cis-passing privilege?

Started by RachelsMantra, November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM

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RachelsMantra

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 05:30:59 AM
In my opinion, a masculine looking woman with a very feminine voice will still pass a lot more than a pretty girl who has gotten FFS but has a masculine sounding voice. Voice is the most important for passing I think.

I suspect you are right - which sucks because I have a masculine sounding voice :(


Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.

I think this is definitely true of myself right now. While I can't wait until I pass better, it's not the worst thing in the world. People are nice to me. I try to be authentic and not hide who I am and people seem to respond well to that authenticity. So long as no one ever again thinks it appropriate to call me "sir" I'll be pretty happy.
Started HRT on September 1st, 2015.
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Roni

Rachel, upon reading my posts and then your reply I realized it sounded like I might have been referring to you, the OP of this thread. I was using "you" as a general term to refer to any girl. Sorry I just didn't want my posts coming out the wrong way haha.
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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RachelsMantra

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 08:28:41 AM
Rachel, upon reading my posts and then your reply I realized it sounded like I might have been referring to you, the OP of this thread. I was using "you" as a general term to refer to any girl. Sorry I just didn't want my posts coming out the wrong way haha.

Oh it's ok you're fine I didn't think you were talking about me but your observations very much applied in my own situation.
Started HRT on September 1st, 2015.
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Rhonda333

Of course I'm not showing a picture yet, but I will pass 98% of the time. The other 2% will be women you think something is not quite right. Very convincing to the boys it seems.
I am a pre op MtF.
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iKate


Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
I believe the number of women who think they pass when they actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror, or just because you get ma'amed a couple times. Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.

I think every girl goes through it---the blind stage where they think they pass. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.

I think I am about 50% on the way to completely passing, and that is okay with me. Transition is a journey and should be enjoyed.




Edited for language. Devlyn

I don't see how you don't pass. Your FFS results definitely screams female.

For the other thing I agree with you. I have older pix where I thought I passed but I look like a total dude! That said I do remember genuine passing moments because people would call me "ma'am" and then switch to "sir" when they heard my voice. Thankfully that doesn't happen any more!!!


And yes the voice is the swing vote. I've always said that. I walked out the house with no makeup, light beard shadow and my hair a mess yet I always get ma'am or miss. Without fail now. I can't really remember the last time I've been called sir, he or him.
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iKate


Quote from: warmbody28 on November 16, 2015, 07:57:24 AM
Roni you make some very good points. also something i had not thought about until now is people are now aware we can have FFS,GRS body contouring surgery and soon will know about voice surgery too. oh one girl at work also knew about adams apple shaving and how constructing a male penis is done. people are def catching on. but this can be a good thing.

and the weird this is I've noticed guys (at least some) really seem to be into androgyny or females with boyish bodies.

There's a guy who is very much hitting on me (and I kind of don't mind, lol) and he says he likes that I'm into science, outdoors, motorcycles and guns. So yeah, sometimes guys like girls who are into not traditionally feminine flowers.
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Juliett

Being asked about your period usually leaves little room for misunderstandings.
correlation /= causation
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Lady_Oracle

I made this really long post talking about my experiences when I didnt pass and when I did actually start passing and then when I gained beauty privilege. I'm still debating on whether or not I should post it.
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Roni

Quote from: iKate on November 16, 2015, 04:34:16 PM
I don't see how you don't pass. Your FFS results definitely screams female.

For the other thing I agree with you. I have older pix where I thought I passed but I look like a total dude! That said I do remember genuine passing moments because people would call me "ma'am" and then switch to "sir" when they heard my voice. Thankfully that doesn't happen any more!!!


And yes the voice is the swing vote. I've always said that. I walked out the house with no makeup, light beard shadow and my hair a mess yet I always get ma'am or miss. Without fail now. I can't really remember the last time I've been called sir, he or him.

Personally I think, as most other girls know, that looks is just one part of the puzzle. Yes I am very content with my FFS results, but as far as mannerisms, using female speech, I believe I still have a ways to go. Hopefully voice surgery will have helped. We shall see when I return to work.

Yeah your voice passed as cis to me! No wonder you don't get sir'd anymore!

Edit: If I could have your voice I believe I'd be 90% on the way there lol!
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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warmbody28

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 07:36:57 PM
Personally I think, as most other girls know, that looks is just one part of the puzzle. Yes I am very content with my FFS results, but as far as mannerisms, using female speech, I believe I still have a ways to go. Hopefully voice surgery will have helped. We shall see when I return to work.

Yeah your voice passed as cis to me! No wonder you don't get sir'd anymore!

Edit: If I could have your voice I believe I'd be 90% on the way there lol!

another very good point. your voice can be make or break moment. I will admit before voice surgery i use to mess with people in the drive through window on road trips. it was the funniest reactions ever
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Roni

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on November 16, 2015, 07:32:54 PM
I made this really long post talking about my experiences when I didnt pass and when I did actually start passing and then when I gained beauty privilege. I'm still debating on whether or not I should post it.

Beauty privilege very much exists, especially in our community. I've observed that the prettier you are, the more people tend to respect and see you as your gender identity.

"Beauty" privilege can suck though. I don't know how many times I've voiced my dysphoria, problems with being trans in this society, only for people to dismiss the problems I go through by saying "at least you're pretty."
On the wild journey to self-discovery. Free yourself.
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Serenation


If some ones nice to you and you are nice back (that's all that matters), then you both passed as "nice people" I call it nice-passing

p.s putting random words in front of passing is silly, sorry for being a jerk but I jerk-pass well.
I will touch a 100 flowers and not pick one.
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Lady_Oracle

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 08:04:30 PM
Beauty privilege very much exists, especially in our community. I've observed that the prettier you are, the more people tend to respect and see you as your gender identity.

"Beauty" privilege can suck though. I don't know how many times I've voiced my dysphoria, problems with being trans in this society, only for people to dismiss the problems I go through by saying "at least you're pretty."

Yep pretty much, like I have tons of stuff I'm still dealing with and I had someone earlier this year said, "how can you be depressed when you're so pretty"  ::) I know they didn't mean to sound rude or anything, I was a bit taken back when they said it.

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iKate

Quote from: Serenation on November 16, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
If some ones nice to you and you are nice back (that's all that matters), then you both passed as "nice people" I call it nice-passing

p.s putting random words in front of passing is silly, sorry for being a jerk but I jerk-pass well.

As I said before I am at the point where it really doesn't matter. I have confidence that I pass but I don't make it out to be a big deal. Isn't that the goal? Just to go about your life and not worry about your gender? I think so.

And yes I agree, "cis passing" seems like cis women are somehow "better" than us. Honestly I treat them like equals. Different in some respects but equal. They treat me like equals, at least most of them to my face. Which is all that really matters...

TL;DR - live your life. Make a reasonable effort to "pass" but don't go crazy about it.
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iKate

Quote from: Juliett on November 16, 2015, 05:01:24 PM
Being asked about your period usually leaves little room for misunderstandings.

True. Happened to me most recently last week.

However if it's by a medical professional they may just have to ask those questions anyway.

I am also most embarrassed to say that because I had a few extra pounds, people asked me if I was pregnant. Or they see me and the kids and they ask me how I lost the baby weight so fast...
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audreelyn

One thing to not forget is that the type of environment or community you belong to is also a factor.

I happen to be a huge nerd, so I go to these game shops and play cards with my guy friends and I happen to be the only girl in the shop. Most guys who go to these places are more interested with what's on the table than what kind of skirt I'm wearing. Go to the mall or to the bar and things get different, fast.

Here's the other thing:  Cis girls, at least the ones I know, usually do their best to look pretty and are concerned with their appearance... passing whether cis or not, and doing so in an attractive way (to one's self or to others), is definitely an aspect of the female gender. It's also why I like being part of it. It can be unhealthy to constantly compare one's self to others, but within reason, it can also be a healthy part of your identity and self esteem. :)

Audree
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Elsa Delyth

It's all well and good to say that being happy with yourself is what's important, but being recognized as trans usually implies more stress, discrimination, and perhaps even violence.

I do though, think that being attractive doesn't really have anything at all to do with passing. They may become conflated in the trans community, because performatively, they may be identical practices.

Being trans is a social strata, which implies social standing, and I've read studies that say that transwomen that pass are happier, more well adjusted, and experience less stress and depression.

Of course it doesn't help to worry about it a whole bunch, and torture yourself over it, and think that it's everything. I really want to say two things, that passing is important, but only because society is rough on us, and only to the extent it makes us happier, and healthier. If the obsession makes you more depressed, and less healthy, then it is better to strive for whatever contentment you can achieve.

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." Emma Goldman.
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Lagertha

"passing": It means you pass AS a woman (or as a man in ftm case). It literally means, that you are not a woman, but you are passing as one. The core of this word and meaning behind it is wrong... if there needs to be the word for this, it should be changed.


"passing as cis": It means you pass AS A CIS-woman. You are not cis-woman, but you pass as one. Which (unlike "pass as a woman") does not imply that you are not a woman.
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warmbody28

all I know is once i started living life and being accepted as female my depression went away. I didn't even know i wasn't depressed anymore until others brought it to my attention.
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iKate

Quote from: audreelyn on November 16, 2015, 11:13:56 PM
One thing to not forget is that the type of environment or community you belong to is also a factor.

I happen to be a huge nerd, so I go to these game shops and play cards with my guy friends and I happen to be the only girl in the shop. Most guys who go to these places are more interested with what's on the table than what kind of skirt I'm wearing. Go to the mall or to the bar and things get different, fast.

Here's the other thing:  Cis girls, at least the ones I know, usually do their best to look pretty and are concerned with their appearance... passing whether cis or not, and doing so in an attractive way (to one's self or to others), is definitely an aspect of the female gender. It's also why I like being part of it. It can be unhealthy to constantly compare one's self to others, but within reason, it can also be a healthy part of your identity and self esteem. :)

Audree

I belong to conservative circles, professionally and personally.

Sometimes I think I'm swimming in a shark tank. People accept me. Go figure.
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