The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse

Cat G
11/17/2105

https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73

In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 18, 2015, 09:31:54 AM
The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse

Cat G
11/17/2105

https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73

In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.

I read the blog linked from the article and it seems that as a non-intersex person I am only allowed to listen.

"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "

Well if the data showing structural brain difference between trans and non trans is true then all trans are intersex.  Also, unless one does a genetic map how can one know their DNA?  Seems to needlessly distinguish.  How does one know they aren't intersex vs intersex? 

So if I am understanding right, should I say 'bodies come in all different types black, white, intersex, cis, trans, tall and short'; then, I because I am holding up several groups to a spotlight there that I don't belong to, indeed it is arguably impossible to belong to all of them, then I am being offensive to all those groups I don't belong to?

I am not sure I understand. I have to agree that trans identities shouldn't need validation, but in any conversation about gender, it is a common position of the average person, that one's body determines gender in a binary way. In my mind I see intersex conditions as being a piece of evidence to the contrary, but I shouldn't point that out? Or am I wrong completely?

What if I am intersex and someone says argues that gender is male/female based on anatomy? Can I as an intersex person, point to intersex conditions as evidence that this is not the case? If so, surely an idea's validity is independent of its source?

I am not arguing against the position, but I do have a good few questions about it.

I'm not buying it. A few years ago there was a bit of buzz about "TS/IS Liberation", a movement that was ostensibly initiated to separate TS and IS folks from the greater LGBTQ community due to alleged transphobia from gay and lesbian people. It was as vile and divisive as any redneck political dumbassery you can imagine. After about a year or two, the founder of the website repented, apologized for the hate she had fomented, and shuttered her website.

I am unaware of this business about "constantly calling out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity". I'm not saying it happens, but where? When? I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm fairly well plugged-in with trans folks in my real life community and online, and I have NEVER seen this happen.

Could be that the issues are personal and not a product of the cultures represented.

Quote from: bmapwv on November 18, 2015, 09:49:39 AM
I read the blog linked from the article and it seems that as a non-intersex person I am only allowed to listen.

"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "

It also seems as if some people want to keep it that way. Sad. They have an opportunity to open up dialogue and they shut people down. I have no sympathy for troublemaking crybabies.

To my way of thinking, everyone is equal here.

if not in reality than I may as well turn in my Susan's card

Everyone is a little different from some one else and deserves to be treated well.

Although not a Christian but a Deist(belief in a God) I like the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you want others to treat you.

just another debate under the umbrella to cause trouble. Wouldn't it be funny if future scientists discovered a group of genes at the root of all  gender and sexual variations , just different positioning of the same genes like differences in hair color. Red heads need to be excluded from associating with blonds.

I don't find this all that surprising.

I don't think there's always an appreciation among dyadic trans people for how different the issues are that intersex people have to deal with.  I won't claim to be an expert, as I am dyadic myself (AFAIK), but just reading up on it makes it clear that it's very different.

As the article mentions, there's a tendency to dredge up "intersex" as an example when people (trans or not) want to dispute the usual XX/XY mythology, and then forget it.  (E.g., using XX / XY to indicate "biological" female/male.)  It happens here at Susan's.

One glaring example of insensitivity to intersex people is the meme that transgenderness is an intersex condition: even though I'm not intersex, I can see how actual intersex people would find it insulting and invalidating.

BTW, I can understand why a blog intended for discussion among intersex people might write:

Quote
"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "

It's pretty common for spaces on the web that are intended for people who are knowledgeable about issue X to be invaded by people who have no clue and expect the regulars to give them a free education, to the point of making it impossible for the regulars to actually have the discussions they came there to have.  When those who invade are higher up on some axis of privilege, they get downright insulted when they are asked to educate themselves elsewhere.

Quote from: Asche on November 18, 2015, 12:58:33 PM
I don't find this all that surprising.

Neither do I, but it is the sort of thing that drives me away from "The Community" and into "cis-life". I blend in well enough that I do not need the trans community in my life, but I like to offer support to those coming along behind me.

This sort of thing pushes me away from trying understand things like non-binary and intersex and stuff like that. If I cannot ask questions to try and gain an understanding then I may as well stay in my "dyad" world and ignore the stuff I cannot figure out.

Personal opinion only. The problem with all these groups is that they establish a mythology and then people who challenge that mythology are rejected or have their credentials constantly questioned.

For example as it happens I can medically prove that I carry the genetic markers for partial androgen insensitivity, however as I came to that diagnosis rather later in life as the result of a private set of genetic sequencing carried out decades after I had transitioned and had GCS, I am somewhat a fraud because I grew up with the belief that such differences as I had were just natural variations, and I identified as someone who had an intense desire to be the opposite gender to that to which I had been originally assigned - hence technically trans.

My problem, as I have got older, and learned more of myself, is that I dont truly belong to either group! Indeed I find both groups both puzzling and irritating at times... So I kind of accept that I'm in a category of... well I would have said one until I met my Susan - and now I would say two because we are incredibly similar. However niether of us entirely fits with the standard narative, although for slightly different reasons.

My point is that its a very dangerous road when anyone sets out on the road of judging who is and isnt "genuine" etc and thats one of the nice things about Susans offering welcome to all. I've been thrown out of lesbian groups for being too obviously straight, Trans groups for being too obviously intersex, intersex groups for being too obviously trans, etc etc...

FWIW I self identify as a mostly lesbian female with a trans & intersex past and I can prove all of those elements - but it starts to get rather silly when you find yourself being judged on the internet by someone who in all probablility is far more fake than you will ever be, so my conclusion is that as soon as any group starts restricting who can contribute I label that group as probably full of fakes and flakes, inward looking, self-serving and most likely worth avoiding or ignoring.

Its a personal opinion only of course, and I dare say they might think the same thing of me, which is fine because the world is surely big enough to live and let live.

The more I read the article the less I like it.

It draws some arbitrary distinction between trans and intersex people.

Trans people are intersex.

There are more than two options and pointing it out isn't throwing anyone under the bus.

Whether you condition is body and brain or not isn't relevant.

Intersex support group I'm in posted this, I really dislike the word dyadic, I think it's dismissive to gender fluid and non binary trans people. This whole article annoys me.

Frustrates me, we all just want by accepted in society to live in peace as ourselves yet some of us can't even accept each other.

Quote from: Oliviah on November 18, 2015, 04:17:42 PM
The more I read the article the less I like it.

It draws some arbitrary distinction between trans and intersex people.

Trans people are intersex.

There are more than two options and pointing it out isn't throwing anyone under the bus.

Whether you condition is body and brain or not isn't relevant.

I disagree. Regardless of what the article says (I'm not going to bother to read it), being intersex is it's own condition. It's a group of actual medical conditions, separate from gender dysphoria, and should be treated as such. To say 'Trans people are intersex' does no good for either group. If this is a common misconception then it doesn't help intersex people who may have their own medical needs that should be addressed, and then have that mixed up with transgender issues. Not all intersex people are transgendered, and they shouldn't have to have misinformed people confuse the two things.

 

A moot point. I have been involved in this debate at a political level.

Many (?) intersex groups are fiercely protective of the gains they have made and struggle to have those gains possibly diluted by transgender people looking for political support.

As ever it comes down to power, the root of which is money and financial support.

The definition of intersex used by intersex groups is quite specific, and that is what they adhere too.

That a high percentage of intersex people are transgender is a confounding issue. That some transgender groups/people wish to include the 'transgender brain' as 'proof' of an intersex condition is contrary to the the definitions of intersex groups.

However as far as this site is concerned it is irrelevant.

Everyone is welcome and accepted here, we are inclusive. If anyone of any identity has a problem with that, then they are not welcome.

And I shall enforce that rule.

If there is any argument on this I shall lock this thread and act accordingly.

Cindy
Forum Admin.

Thank you, Cindy.  I was getting a little uncomfortable with how this was going.

Quote from: Cindy on November 19, 2015, 01:51:17 AM
Everyone is welcome and accepted here, we are inclusive. If anyone of any identity has a problem with that, then they are not welcome.

As someone who is most decidedly not a moderator or admin, may I add an additional plea, anyway?

Can those of us who are not intersex try to be sensitive to the concerns of those who are?  We transgender people ask cis people to be sensitive to our concerns and respect our understanding of who we are, even when it doesn't make sense to them.  Can we extend the same courtesy (or maybe it's decency?) to intersex people?  (Ditto for other groups here.)

(IMHO, being understanding of other people's perspectives and feelings, and being respectful when we can't understand, is the best way to heal rifts.  But it's possible I don't know what I'm talking about.)

Quote from: Asche on November 19, 2015, 05:07:38 AM
Thank you, Cindy.  I was getting a little uncomfortable with how this was going.

As someone who is most decidedly not a moderator or admin, may I add an additional plea, anyway?

Can those of us who are not intersex try to be sensitive to the concerns of those who are?  We transgender people ask cis people to be sensitive to our concerns and respect our understanding of who we are, even when it doesn't make sense to them.  Can we extend the same courtesy (or maybe it's decency?) to intersex people?  (Ditto for other groups here.)

(IMHO, being understanding of other people's perspectives and feelings, and being respectful when we can't understand, is the best way to heal rifts.  But it's possible I don't know what I'm talking about.)

I am very willing to show all people love and acceptance.  I just don't know what is being requested other than to stop using the inter sex condition at evidence of being born physically non binary.  I don't know if that includes genetic anomaly that doesn't include genitalia anomaly.

I have a genetic anomaly.  I am transsexual.  I am quite sure my brain is female.  Am I inter sex?

I do understand the point that many trans say they are inter sex as a way to point to an excuse or reason they are trans.  This is often done to soften the blow of coming out.  Used to be people would fake accidents and say the car crash caused it or stuff like that.

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 18, 2015, 09:31:54 AM
The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse

Cat G
11/17/2105

https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73

In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.

I've noticed that the intersex condition is normally brought up by cispeople who are debunking the concept of a concrete gender binary.  It is not used by "dyadic" transgender people for any other reason in my experience. 

- Most people believe that gender is binary.
- Intersex conditions (along with several other conditions) destroy that assumption.
- Intersex conditions are therefore reasonably brought up to combat ignorance regarding the false assumption.

It is simple to me.  For me and many others, it is especially frustrating if you are unable to even know.  Hypospadias is now classified as an intersex condition and many transwomen were born with it unaware.  I am currently in the process of trying to track down my birth records after hearing some strange stories about my early childhood regarding this.  If the hospital shredded them (which this one does after 10 years of no contact) like they are suggesting may have happened, I will never know the truth.  Where does that leave people like us?

Intersex conditions usually trip up the 'you're born XX or born XY you can't change!" arguments... are intersex people not as offended by that attitude as transpeople are? Are there not people who would say you shouldn't change your gender - unless you're born intersex, which still removes the element of personal identification. Being compelled to pick a side is pretty much rubbish for everyone.

I feel like the two may not be necessarily medically linked but they are linked in people's attitudes towards them - even people that accept that intersex isn't a choice might not be comfortable with someone who is intersex and IDs as agender.

So tired of having every aspect of my life subdivided now I'm dyadic too? Guess I am just naive but I tend not to see see things with an us against them attitude.

Quote from: Oliviah on November 19, 2015, 09:42:14 AM
I am very willing to show all people love and acceptance.  I just don't know what is being requested other than to stop using the inter sex condition at evidence of being born physically non binary.  I don't know if that includes genetic anomaly that doesn't include genitalia anomaly.

I have a genetic anomaly.  I am transsexual.  I am quite sure my brain is female.  Am I inter sex?

I do understand the point that many trans say they are inter sex as a way to point to an excuse or reason they are trans.  This is often done to soften the blow of coming out.  Used to be people would fake accidents and say the car crash caused it or stuff like that.

Hi Oliviah there is a list here of intersex conditions https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexuality as recognised by North America.

If you think you have an intersex condition it's something you need to speak with your doctor about.