Quote from: warmbody28 on November 17, 2015, 07:11:35 AM
all I know is once i started living life and being accepted as female my depression went away. I didn't even know i wasn't depressed anymore until others brought it to my attention.

EXACTLY. This is how one should approach life.

Quote from: iKate on November 17, 2015, 11:59:03 AM
I belong to conservative circles, professionally and personally.

Sometimes I think I'm swimming in a shark tank. People accept me. Go figure.

I've had the same experience on a professional level. (Happened to me today in a very conservative setting/meeting.) I think the issue is so many conservative who have never met a transgender woman have such a false idea of what a transgender woman looks like. Many have said they thought transgender women looked like guys in a dress and wig. They meet me and they change their attitude. (The ones that know I'm trans since some knew me prior to transitioning.) Their attitude is : "Well it's obvious that you are a woman" or "your somehow different from what I ever expected and your OK by me." Like it or not I think blending (a much better term than passing) is what causes this type of response. If your not blending, then in those conservative circles you are going to have issues with some people. It's a harsh reality that really sucks.

It does bring up something though. I transitioned to be a woman. I didn't transition to be a transgender woman. Even though I'm an advocate for transgender rights and I've even been interviewed as a transgender woman by the media for an article on transgender women in NJ, for my day to day life, I'm simply a woman. This is what makes me happy and that is my goal. So while I'm not stealth, I don't make an issue of it and if someone asks, I'll tell them, but how I present is who I am.

In an ideal world maybe we wouldn't be bothered by passing but unfortunately I think that we are held up to a standard or a set of standards that can judge us very harshly.Are you tall,how do you move,is your voice readable(tone,inflexion and style),are your shoulders wide etc etc.All of these things are there to potentially torture us and make us miserable if we want to let them.I'm no Paris Lees or Janet Mock but really nor are any of my cis friends.I'm sure I get read now and then but do I get abused for it? No I don't so thats a plus.Am I self deluding-possibly but its not a question that helps really.I am who I am with a herstory that has made me the woman I am today.Like all of us its a unique story and I do feel so privileged to be able to live my life,being who I am with very few negatives and most of all to live it in the now.

Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
I take it to be not a controversial statement that not all trans people have or ever will have cis-passing privilege. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that passing as cis is indeed a great privilege. It means you have the power to disclose your trans status, to blend into society, and escape the harassment that visibly trans people experience on a daily basis. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that more trans men have cis-passing privilege than trans women.

Questions I have been pondering:

(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?

(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?

(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?

(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?

(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?

(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?

(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.

(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?



Ok, I think that's enough questions to start a discussion. Don't feel like you have to answer all the questions if you want to contribute.

I can obviously only speak for myself. I am very lucky that I do have "cis-passing" privilege. And I am very aware that it is a privilege.

The first three questions are kinda impossible to answer outside of just a guess. Also, I think it's hard for a trans person to judge whether or not another trans person "passes." We are the best at clocking each other. We constantly pick ourselves apart and the masculine (or feminine if you're ftm) traits get magnified and played up in our heads and we see them much more than others do. Then I think that magnification transfers to how we view other trans people as well. So I think if someone tells you they consistently get gendered correctly in all situations by strangers and is not getting strange stares on the street, it's probably pretty safe to say they're "passing." Also, remember, "passing" and physical attractiveness are two different things. I feel like often they get conflated. Not every girl who "passes" looks like Janet Mock, some look like Kathy Bates. And not every guy who passes looks like Aydian Dowling, some look like Paul Giamatti.

I do think a lot of trans people set out with the goal of "passing" in mind and are disappointed if they never reach it. I know for me, before I started HRT, everyone I was out of the closet to told me I'd have no problem, but I couldn't see it (thanks to that aforementioned magnification thing). So I wanted to get mentally okay with the idea of never passing before I even started HRT so that the journey could be about me and not about what others thought of me. And yes I think it absolutely can become an unhealthy goal or obsession.

I don't think there's a difference between "cis-passing" and "passing." I think both imply you are blending in and being read as cis. That said, even though I can't remember the last time I was sirred in any setting, sometimes I still have that same insecurity where I think maybe someone can tell I'm trans but my presentation is female so they're educated enough to use the proper pronouns. But I've had situations that proved otherwise. For example, I had to pick up a prescription yesterday. My insurance is still under my male name. So I gave that name and the pharmacist goes "what's his date of birth?" assuming that "male name" wasn't me. Then when she gave me the instructions for the medication she was like, 'tell him that he should... Etc etc.' And I was sick as a dog, not wearing makeup, in sneakers, jeans, and a long sleeve T-shirt.

In terms of voice, I went to Yeson and am one of the lucky ones who had a really good result. I don't even think about my voice anymore. It gets gendered as female even on the phone when I'm sick. That has been a HUGE confidence booster.

Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
I heard the term "cis-passing" at a trans panel talk last night by trans activist Cece McDonald and I felt it was a more accurate term than "passing", which is kind of vague.

I actually kinda like the term "cis-passing." I've never heard it before. But I've always found the term "passing" to be problematic because it implies trans people are "passing" as something they're not. By putting "cis" in front of it it clarifies it and makes it solely about passing as cis or passing among cis people as one of them. I get that's the implication of "passing" to begin with but I actually think that term is clearer. Just my two cents :-).


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Quote(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?

Not sure.

Quote(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?

Not sure if it's relevant. If you legit live your life and never feel like you're being treated differently by anybody, why does it even matter if some people actually do know? You would have to be certifiably oblivious for this to even apply to you though.

Quote(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?

When you live as your actual gender in the real world, you receive so much feedback with every interaction you have with other people, I just think it would be really hard to not realize you pass. However, there's a lot of emotional baggage we carry and I can see it happening.

Quote(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?

Not sure, but they shouldn't.

Quote(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?

I mean if somebody realistically will never pass but will only be happy if they do, that is probably unhealthy. That's the only scenario I can see. I don't think it's toxic though.

Quote(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?

I don't understand the idea of cis-passing. Passing is being perceived cis, isn't it?

Quote(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.

So you mean you're being accepted as a woman, even with your trans status sometimes being perceived? Idk how many experience that, maybe a lot. It isn't a bad thing though, more it's a credit to your community and the people you interact with. Probably it also means you exude more of a womanly vibe than you might think.

Quote(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?

Very many.

Bunny Bee, you'd be surprised how many of us worry about that. The worry about passing only barely registers these days when I'm wearing something low key like jeans and a tshirt, but if I wear something like a tight fitting dress I am just more worried and aware of people around me. That is amplified by the fact that of course people are going to look at you if you're wearing a bodycon dress.

Quote from: BunnyBee on November 17, 2015, 10:34:55 PM
So you mean you're being accepted as a woman, even with your trans status sometimes being perceived? Idk how many experience that, maybe a lot. It isn't a bad thing though, more it's a credit to your community and the people you interact with. Probably it also means you exude more of a womanly vibe than you might think.

I think it's definitely possible. It certainly felt like a thing for me, even amongst colleagues and friends who knew I was trans. You're right though, a lot of it definitely had to do with the fact they were open minded and accepting people anyway... I try to choose my friends and colleagues carefully.

If you have a larger body frame now that Female body building is big as well as MMA. I always tell people say you do armature MMA. people automatically thing. ,"oh ok shes cool and can kick butt."

Haha, I'm actually one of the smallest people I know of for my height. Tallish (5'9") and very thin. It's more so from being so thin that I worry about my joints and all the little bumps and lack of smoothness. I know there are some celebrities and models who also have kinda gross knees, etc. but it still bothers me and makes me worry.

Quote from: Dana88 on November 17, 2015, 09:24:38 PM
So I wanted to get mentally okay with the idea of never passing before I even started HRT so that the journey could be about me and not about what others thought of me. And yes I think it absolutely can become an unhealthy goal or obsession.

Omg this is so me. Although I am actively practicing my voice and working on my presentation and deeply hoping that one day stealth will be an option, I don't think I'm anywhere near that goal and I have resigned myself to the possibility that I might never reach that goal. It is kind of a weight off my shoulders. In some respects I have even tried to develop in myself "anti-passing" sentiments i.e. feeling like I *dont* want to pass or that I shouldn't have to want to pass. Although I do really deep down want to pass, it's nice to able to entertain the opposite desire as well and be comfortable with that.

I just got tired of bouncing between two genders, Separate wardrobes, different hairstyles, different vendors and services. Then there were the accidents when I'd open the door for a deliveryman and I be a male in a T shirt with perfectly obvious big breasts. Then there was that binding routine every day that allowed my to appear as male. And all of the time I felt FEMALE. It just took be a few years to finally go over to the other side.

Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:58:38 AM
The only true way to see if you pass is to come out to people and see their reaction.

This is true. I just assume that people eventually work out that I am trans and I try not to worry about it since there is nothing I can do about it anyway.

You can't really assume anything about how people are perceiving you. As an example this past weekend a girl friend and I attended a small conference at a local hotel. I was seated at a table with my friend and 3 other women.The conference began with each of us having to give a 60-90 second talk to the people at our table which I assumed outed me due to my marginally feminine voice.

After a long day of listening to a speaker talk I was chatting with one of the women and I mentioned that I am trans only because it was appropriate to some of the material that was discussed at the conference. I saw her expression change for just a brief second - apparently my being transgender surprised her, and her surprise surprised me.

The concept of passing means something different to each one of us. To me passing is primarily about A) my safety, and B) acceptance by others as the person I am. If I am experiencing both A & B I am satisfied, regardless of what people know or are thinking about me.

Quote(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?

It's depends very much. Some trans women look very female and cis, other doesn't. Not everybody is lucky. So it's from person to person. How many percentage it is doesn't we know. I hasn't heard about any tests or something that's give us a answer at that.

Quote(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?

I don't really know. But I guess it's very few of them who believe they are passing when they are not. I think it's more from the opposite.

Quote(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?

I have no idea at this either. But it's very many.

Quote(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?

It's a lot, but I hasn't number at that either.

Quote(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?

In my option it's very natural passing is important. Many wish people to see their true gender. But thinking too much at passing may be unhealthy and give you too much worries.

Quote(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?

I've never heard the term "Cispassing". But I have heard the word "passing" multiple of times. I doesn't think there are any difference. Passing is passing: (People believe you're the gender you feel as and can't see your biological sex.)

Quote(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.

It's many trans women who get ma'amed etc. because people understand it's what they want too. But not everybody really pass even they get ma'amed. I use only one term and that's "pass/passing". I hasn't so many terms as you.

I'm a guy who passed some times even I doesn't think I'm passable at all. I pass almost all the times. When I'm not passing, it's often because my family and other people I know destroy it. I'm still inside the closet.

Quote(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?

I have no exactly numbers at this question. But it's very normal and typically many passing until they start to talk. Trans guys has that problem too before they starts at T. But removing the guy voice after HRT is often harder than get a guy voice at HRT/T.

Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
Questions I have been pondering:
(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?

1- Nearly no one. I'd say a 3-5%   
2- the most narcissistic ones, probably.
3- A lot of trans girls can potentially blend in but their own perceptions are holding them back. I don't know if this helps.
4- no idea. That's a silly goal to have, in my humble opinion. My transition was internal on a 90% and 10% cosmetic. I transitioned for myself. Not for people to look at me.
5- I wouldn't say mentally unhealthy or toxic, but its probably narcissistic and could make some girls feel really miserable if they don't pass.
6- ir sounds, to me, that passing means blending in, being unnoticed, not being misgendered etc. Cis passing is to look and act like a cis woman and nobody would ever know you were born with the wrong genitals
7- no idea
8- Probably a few but not a lot of them. Anybody can develop a beautiful voice. But looks, thats a little bit harder, surgeries and hrt arent magical and genetics are 90%


Interesting questions! hugs.