I've heard different theories from "it's psychological" coming from another transwoman to "I think it has to do with the make up of your brain" coming from a doctor but in the end no one knows for sure. I know for me and most transpeople it started early on. I remember being sad when my mother refused to paint my nails like she did my sisters. I think I was four or five. Still in the end there is no reason for it. At least none that anyone can say with 100% certainty. What do other people think?

The current thinking is that before birth while our brain was still developing we were exposed to the opposite sex hormone. In MTF it could be a failure of our body to produce sufficient male hormones to masculinize our body so our brain when with the female default. In the MTF it could also be cause by the mother taking female hormones/DES suppressing the production of male hormones. In FTM the mother or child produced an excess of male hormones causing the brain to develop in a masculine direction.

This has been proven by examining a number of transexual before they started with HRT and certain structure of the brain match the desired gender instead of the birth gender. There is a paper on the subject but it's located behind a paywall so I can't link to the full paper.

My theory:
It has something with the development to do. In the beginning inside the womb, the humans looks like girls. It hasn't any penis. The chromosome are XX. But mistakes may happening. The brain can example develop female and the body doesn't get the right message about how it should develop. So it can't response right. Then the XX chromosome convert to XY and a penis begin to develop. If it's a trans man, the brain develop male, but the body can't response... and then the chromosome doesn't convert XY. It stays XX.

According to my theory, the brain developer and the sex organs developer can't communicate with each other. But if the wrong step stop itself in the developing, it can stop the person become transsexual. Then the person may be intersex. In my theory transsexualism (F.64.0) isn't a mental diagnose, it's a chromosome issue. But since the chromosome "syndrome" is so invisible -visible, many arguing fundamentalists says it's a mental illness. Some people just get birth defect and why they get it is hard to explain. Some people have been born blind, deaf, without a arm or with Downs Syndrome to mention something.

Because being a man was yucky and boring haha


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The chromosomes are in fact quite visible. Particularly when viewed under an electron microscope.
There is a department at UCLA hospital that looks specifically at ambiguous births to determine the actual gender, and the aberrations they see in the 45 & 46 chromosomes is absolutely phenomenal. XX chromosomes absolutely peppered with fragmented Y all over the place. Makes you truly wonder.

But as Dena mentioned, there is substantial evidence backed research that proves the hormonal "wash" that occurs in the first trimester inutero at weeks 3 & 11 roughly, are responsible for gender assignment.

Speak to you as soon as I wash the cat.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on November 21, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
The chromosomes are in fact quite visible. Particularly when viewed under an electron microscope.
There is a department at UCLA hospital that looks specifically at ambiguous births to determine the actual gender, and the aberrations they see in the 45 & 46 chromosomes is absolutely phenomenal. XX chromosomes absolutely peppered with fragmented Y all over the place. Makes you truly wonder.

But as Dena mentioned, there is substantial evidence backed research that proves the hormonal "wash" that occurs in the first trimester inutero at weeks 3 & 11 roughly, are responsible for gender assignment.

Speak to you as soon as I wash the cat.

Huggs
Catherine

I wrote invisible- visible, that's not the same as "invisible". English isn't my main language by the way.
Anyway, chromosomes are visible. But many fundamentalists believes transsexuals are mental ill or they are choosing it. The chromosomes may be visible, but it can't always prove how transsexualism works. We doesn't know what causes transsexualism yet and it's hard to prove thing to fundamentalists. If you have it, it's easier to understand it than if you hasn't it.

The chromosomes only show us how the biologically sex are, it doesn't always show us how the mental gender is. In some cases a brain scanner - MRI may show the gender structure at the brain. You can't see at a person if he or she are transsexual or not. You can't see inside another persons mind. Since you can't see who's transsexual, it's invisible. According to my option, ->-bleeped-<- isn't a mental illness. But other people may have other options about that and think it's a mental illness. Since the body look healthy and look like everybody else, it's easy for fundamentalists to blame at the brain. Everything look fine and healthy, when it's not. If you look at a transgender and at a person born without a arm. He without a arm is much more visible. It's much more proof for the naked eye, since his arm is missing and it's more visible. Transsexualism isn't visible in that way. Therefor some people believe it's a mental illness.

Hi Sebby,

I know what you are saying.

And you'll never change a fundamentalist way of thinking. They are just not receptive to any information outside their perhaps narrow perception.

Speak to you as soon as I dust the curtains.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 21, 2015, 12:59:17 PM
I wrote invisible- visible, that's not the same as "invisible". English isn't my main language by the way.
Anyway, chromosomes are visible. But many fundamentalists believes transsexuals are mental ill or they are choosing it. The chromosomes may be visible, but it can't always prove how transsexualism works. We doesn't know what causes transsexualism yet and it's hard to prove thing to fundamentalists. If you have it, it's easier to understand it than if you hasn't it.

The chromosomes only show us how the biologically sex are, it doesn't always show us how the mental gender is. In some cases a brain scanner - MRI may show the gender structure at the brain. You can't see at a person if he or she are transsexual or not. You can't see inside another persons mind. Since you can't see who's transsexual, it's invisible. According to my option, ->-bleeped-<- isn't a mental illness. But other people may have other options about that and think it's a mental illness. Since the body look healthy and look like everybody else, it's easy for fundamentalists to blame at the brain. Everything look fine and healthy, when it's not. If you look at a transgender and at a person born without a arm. He without a arm is much more visible. It's much more proof for the naked eye, since his arm is missing and it's more visible. Transsexualism isn't visible in that way. Therefor some people believe it's a mental illness.

Well there are a few thoughts that can easily be followed.

Transgender people have been around in all cultures so it has to be biological.
It is not a result of certain cultures.

There are differences in brains of women and men.
This was shown by autopsies, and transgender people have the brain of the gender they identify with.
This development is fixed before birth, through various transmitter substances.
There are substances known to cause a higher rate of tg people, those are off the market.

If there are biological differences between the brains of men and women, and hormonal "wash" causes brain gender to develop, is there supposed to be a function that causes brain gender to align with your external anatomy?

I know external anatomy is decided by whichever chromosome is donated by the person whose sperm is fertilizing the egg.

Which is one of the main reasons that biologists say that not too long from now parents will be able to choose what the anatomy of their children looks like should they decide to have part of the process engineered in the lab.

It's also why sperm created from the bone marrow of an XX person can only result in XX children, since in this case the sperm donor can only donate an X chromosome. (Although I believe they're able to change singular x chromosomes to Y chromosomes and vice versa, so it could still result in an XY child with this further step, and the DNA would still belong to the XX person; though I don't think they've developed the technology yet)

So I think that external anatomy is somehow determined prior to brain determination, I'm just sort of confused on how the internal conditions of the womb are supposed to communicate with the way the body of the fetus is developing. Anyone?

Mostly the body you receive isn't determined by genetics but by the hormones you were exposed to before brain development took place. Intersex people may receive both the wrong body and brain because the hormone levels were wrong in both time periods. Genetics determines the most likely hormone you will be exposed to but it's not always a sure thing.

Quote from: Fids on November 21, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
If there are biological differences between the brains of men and women, and hormonal "wash" causes brain gender to develop, is there supposed to be a function that causes brain gender to align with your external anatomy?

Essentially every embryo created is female. The hormonal wash will either reset (masculinise) or support (feminise) the further development. That cross the placenta wash is determined by the mothers genetics apart from other uterine conditions.

Quote from: Fids on November 21, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
I know external anatomy is decided by whichever chromosome is donated by the person whose sperm is fertilizing the egg.

To a degree. There are quite a few other prevailing conditions that can over ride the originating sequence that occurred at conception.

In very simplistic terms, the resultant childbirth with it's plethora of issues is very similar to a plane crash. There's not one specific item that caused the crash, it a culmination of a totally variable set of sequences,  events and situations.

Speak to you as soon as I do my nails.

Huggs
Catherine

That gives me a bit of a better understanding; so you're saying that chromosomes usually influence which hormone you're exposed to in the womb during 2 stages - the brain and body development stage?

And so most of the time, being XY would mean you're exposed to more Testosterone and being XX means you would be exposed to less T/more estrogen, and thus cause your body to develop with certain physical characteristics?

But then a trans person may be exposed to a different hormone during the brain development stage, which causes them to be trans?

Sorry for all of these questions, I've been researching trans science and new breakthroughs in the field of what's on the horizon for transition, so this kind of stuff really helps me understand it better.

Also I love the comparison to a plane crash, it's perfect.

Quote from: Fids on November 21, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
If there are biological differences between the brains of men and women, and hormonal "wash" causes brain gender to develop, is there supposed to be a function that causes brain gender to align with your external anatomy?

There is a spectrum of severity, thats why there is a transgender spectrum.

The brain develops during a certain time in the womb, the sex organs during another. Thats why there is a mismatch possible.
The brain expects, depending on severity, a certain body... some people have a feeling of phantom breasts...

Quote
I know external anatomy is decided by whichever chromosome is donated by the person whose sperm is fertilizing the egg.

This is not all true.
Hormones play a major role in this.
There are people with xy and testosterone insensitivity. They look fully female.

Quote
So I think that external anatomy is somehow determined prior to brain determination, I'm just sort of confused on how the internal conditions of the womb are supposed to communicate with the way the body of the fetus is developing. Anyone?

xx or y is mostly decisive in cells for procreation.
In the rest of the body, hormones play a major role.
There are studies showing that with the influence of estrogen from hrt, a neovagina after srs can turn into a mucosa, like a cis vagina.
Before birth, there are various sources for hormones: from the mother and the developing child.
And there are substances known which can have the same effect as hormones, and some which can have a blocking effect.
Of course many of them are off the market.


hugs

Quote from: Laura_7 on November 21, 2015, 02:31:01 PM
There is a spectrum of severity, thats why there is a transgender spectrum.

The brain develops during a certain time in the womb, the sex organs during another. Thats why there is a mismatch possible.
The brain expects, depending on severity, a certain body... some people have a feeling of phantom breasts...

Thank you for this! I would assume this is why some people experience dysphoria; expecting one's body to be a certain way, but having something different.

I didn't have a good grasp before on what caused people to be intersex; it makes a lot more sense now that I know it's caused by a combination of factors including hormone level before birth.

Misaligned body mapping within the brain by certain causes ranging from prenatal effects to brain changes (Whether natural or damaged). Before you say anything about choices, I did not imply that gender identity is a choice. Asides, brain changes way after birth bypasses genetic and prenatal influences and there are 0 evidence ruling out brain changes being responsible for sexuality/gender in some people. One very compelling case that can be used as a example is a man who is over 50 years old, and had 2 strokes, and his sexuality shifted to the extreme end of the opposite spectrum. His strokes is no where a choice.

Another thing to point out is that recent studies that takes into account of multiple studies (100+ studies) shows that differences between inherent behaviors of male and females are negliable. This would support the idea that a cis-male may still carry a brain of a female for the most part and yet still have a male brain-body mapping.

My answer is that this is how God made me.

I don't think it matters.

I always thought that it was because my mother had me at 44 years old... in 1968.

Or drank, smoked, took diuretics. Who knows?

I do not believe the chromosomes give us the whole being transgender, but its based off of the whole of the hormones that would be thus creating it.
I mean basis under generic genetics the whole xx or xy sex chromosome match is not really the cause of female/male determination, but there is a specific gene that is "usually" on the y chromosome, which is the "SR Y" gene. This gene is basically the determination of the outward appearance of male and/or basis thereof more testosterone hormones to be in the body.
There is also the fact of Turner Syndrome being simply x_ where there is of course the missing chromosome match, which of course would cause changes to the growing baby from womb as well as through life. Then there is a slew of Klinefelter's Syndrome represented as xxx, xxy, xyy, xxxx, xxxy, xxyy. These chromosome matches do happen, humans with these matches do get features that would be of both of the binary sexes, and or other differences to the body. Does this make anyone transgender? The answer is still a no, though it does have a chance that someone could be intersex, though not everyone with these matches.

Okay back to the whole "SR Y" gene. It generally does have a place on the small arm of the y chromosome, though through meiosis, there are possibilities it can then be transposed onto an x chromosome, or be removed from the y chromosome. These instances are pretty rare, but can happen nonetheless. I have also read an article quite some time back, I can't remember the exact date of when I read it, nor the article release date nor the headline, but it was about scientists that were able to medically transpose the SR Y gene to an xx chromosome match, or even removing it from the xy chromosome pair on mice and to see what would happen. I know it sounds bad being medical tests on animals and such, and since I cannot at this time find the article, it may seem a little farfetched. But without that article I would have never talked to my instructor for my genetics course, for hours on the subject purely on gender alone.

Anyways this is just a little food for thought. And clearly in statement even xx and xy chromosome matching does not give the final outcome of female, male, or transgender.

Kate <3

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on November 22, 2015, 01:39:59 AM
I don't think it matters.

Well if it is biological it is socially much more acceptable.
Many restraints from parents if their upbringing caused this etc are unnecessary then.


hugs