During the five or so months I have been injecting T, there have been masculinizing changes to my voice, face, and body...probably some to my brain also. I got a STP device that I can both pack with and pee out of, and I've worked on building muscles and masculinizing my mannerisms and walk. To me, all of these things are part of what I think constitutes being a man.

It was a conversation with a cis male about my STP device, however, that got me thinking about what being a man really means, beyond the physical. He challenged me, saying that being a man isn't about standing to pee or even having a penis. Since there are cis men who have ambiguous genitalia, no facial hair, a high voice, feminine walk and mannerisms, no defined musculature, a different chromosomal make-up, sit to pee etc. (all of the things I am working to undo!), what does being a man mean?

As I'm still trying to figure this out (I know Charles "Pa" Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie factors in somehow , I thought I'd put it out there to see what others thought.

It's unique to everyone, what it means.

To me it means acting and being treated in a way that matches who I am inside. I like to be independent, I like to be capable of looking after myself, and I like to be respected for my strengths. I also like to be taken seriously. I've tried to live my life in such a way that I can do these things even if the body doesn't match up yet, which is possible to a degree. It also means - to an extent - being alone, to deal with things on your own and not to expect complaining will get you anywhere, but I've had a lifetime of practice for that.

To me being a man means being accountable for your own actions, being loyal and dependable, strong physically and emotionally, and not afraid to stand up for yourself. To be respected, and be respectful.

Obviously, these are attributes that are just as admirable in women too. There's not really a set definition of being a "man".
I don't really think appearance has anything to do with it either, I've known plenty of guys that are in the more "metrosexual" realm that are way more of a "man" than some guys I know who are your stereotypical big truck driving, dip spittin beer drinking rough type.

It's all very subjective. But that's just what I interpret as being a "man".

Today if you attempt to define manliness you'll run into all sorts of opposition. People say it's OK to be a man and be feminine, or to be a strong man is wrong. I don't know. I think men are by nature strong and dominant. It's what I look for in a man, anyway. But one who can be gentle when he needs to be.

But stereotypes are stereotypes. If you want to be a strong man, be one. If you want to be metro or effeminate that's cool too.

For me it just means expressing who I feel I am on the outside. That doesn´t mean just standing to go to the bathroom - it means I behave, talk and dress to reflect how I feel inside.

It also means for me being caring, but from a different place than how women care. Trying to develop a balance between finding my own space, my own dignity, my own silence, and caring and providing for others.

It used to mean a whole bunch of other things for me, but since then it´s sort of watered down to that.

I asked this very same question on here a couple months ago, and I still don't know the answer for myself. I now, focus more on what "being Phoenix or myself" means to me versus what "being a man" means to me. I feel like being that obsessed with passing will be counterproductive to my transitional efforts. Seriously...I'm just starting not to really give a fart! >.> I don't know what the heck I am anymore....I wish I was not a human at all. Humanity and humans just suck.

~Nixy~

Quote from: iKate on November 22, 2015, 10:37:49 AM
Today if you attempt to define manliness you'll run into all sorts of opposition. People say it's OK to be a man and be feminine, or to be a strong man is wrong. I don't know. I think men are by nature strong and dominant. It's what I look for in a man, anyway. But one who can be gentle when he needs to be.

But stereotypes are stereotypes. If you want to be a strong man, be one. If you want to be metro or effeminate that's cool too.

It's strange because you hear that sort of thing around... it's ok for men to have feelings too... but at the same time nobody thinks much of a man who is an emotional wreck. Or a man who doesn't make himself useful. Even the same people who say it's ok for men to be weak don't really seem to want weak men. I think it's a biproduct of equality meaning people have to make noises to say that yeah, women can be like men and therefore it's only fair if men can be like women... but in reality not all that many people would probably accept a man who needs too much emotional or physical support from others.

Quote from: T.K.G.W.... in reality not all that many people would probably accept a man who needs too much emotional or physical support from others.

There's a difference between weakness and vulnerability, between being a black hole for other people's energy and fostering the kind of intimacy that comes from being emotionally open (i.e., admitting one has feelings and not being afraid to show them).

Vulnerability takes a lot of courage. 

One of my role models is a 6'1" ex-Marine, ex-state trooper -- who is not afraid to cry or to show empathy for the struggles of others. At one point, he and his wife ran a battered women's shelter; the residents felt safe around him precisely because he wasn't afraid of his own humanity.

I'm also a big fan of the idea of the valuable man: the one who puts community and family ahead of his own desires and is committed to nurturing their well-being. "Manly" virtues such as independence, self-sufficiency, competitiveness, and dominance (all of which are mostly selfish) all rank a lot lower than being useful and responsible.

Of course. Personally I will get frustrated with anybody - male or female - who acts like a wet blanket one too many times, with the exception of children where you expect that kind of behavior. Which as you said is something different. That's helplessness, or worse learned helplessness in adults. When it becomes a crutch or a device to extract sympathy from others.

Very few men I know exhibit helplessness or learned helplessness... probably because it isn't tolerated, or nobody will help them up if they're wallowing on the floor so there's nothing to gain by doing it. If showing vulnerability takes courage, then I suppose it proves there's instinctual fear of its repercussions, showing it isn't always beneficial or wanted by others. There are benefits to showing it to the right people in the right places though.

I think everybody should contribute if they can - although I do take issue with the attacks by some groups on men having spaces of their own to do their own things with if they want to. Men's primary evolutionary role in the past was to be useful and protective, yes, but in this day and age where we have time for leisure and personal pursuits, men have as much right to those as anyone else. Not everything we do need be immediately useful to somebody else.   

To be a man you must be swift as a coursing river, with all the force of a great typhoon, with all the strength of a raging fire, mysterious as the dark side of the moon

X3

I'll get that arrow, pretty boy. And I'll do it with my shirt on.

Hehehehe, yeah sorry I had to.

In any case, being a man doesnt have any qualities that being female doesnt. Well...I may gravitate towards being male, because to me being male means not being frail and dependant, doesnt necessitate being pretty, being rough and tough, being bold and adventurous, and being in love with things and expressions considered male. These are of course stereotyped and I could naturally be all these things as much a woman as a man. Im just drawn to feeling all these as male

In the end it isnt an image or symbol I strive for, but what it takes to be myself. This is a way I have always been and I want to reflect that physically to others, I want to feel comfortable in my own body and sometimes I wish Id grown up male, but its not too late.

Also, with being myself, theres some "feminine" qualities I would not wish to change. They are my qualities and I couldnt care if it makes me an effeminate male, because thats just the way I am.

I always wonder how many cis men can answer this question? What I mean is, I don't think that there is a concept of 'being a man' nowadays in the same way that there used to be - being a man in the sense of being protector, breadwinner, etc is usually challenged by the cis population. It only seems to come up outside of trans communities when people are discussing trans people and why they can't be their true gender. :/

I don't like how the word 'man' has some kind of special lofty connotation to it. To me it means being human. Being strong when I have to be, unafraid to show emotions and being kind to others.

I don't think there really is much of a lofty connotation to it. It sounds ordinary, normative, the "default" human to me. It's only got that lofty sense to it when it's used to differentiate between someone acting "appropriately" (according to someone's ideas of what that is, i.e. "take it like a man," "be a man," as if to say if you aren't then you're something lower) but otherwise... I don't think it's an especially complimentary word. I say that as a trans man too; I'm pleased to hear myself being called a man, but I know there's nothing special about me for it.