Or will there always be some tension?

I dunno about you but I never feel safe opening up anywhere else but on non binary websites and forums, because otherwise binary trans people have this habit of thinking they're superior and get hostile with me. They wilfully derail topics to make things about them; give advice about hrt and the like to non binaries like they're stupid; and just generally act like they're the definition of transgender while non binaries are made up identities that they just need to suck up and deal with.

Or maybe it's just me.

Hi Anan,

You are such a profound thinker. You'll go a long way.

I think you question will get relegated to The Great Mysteries Of Life, category. Along with, will men ever get along with women; will Christianity ever get along with Islam; will Eskimos ever get along with Equatorians.

Whenever you have two people in discussion you'll have 4 opinions. So I think the answer is mathematical. A mathematical answer, based on probability.

Sorry I couldn't be more predicable.

Speak to you as soon as I've milked the cows.

Huggs
Catherine

Well Anon, we don't allow the kind of behaviour you've described from either binary or non binary people. It's human nature to bicker and act like their brand of cola is better than someone else's brand of cola, whole wars have been fought over that kind of nonsense. We should all just enjoy the cola!

I don't know why they can't get along.  Both groups could calm down a little and quit thinking about themselves and a little more about the other.  Neither group is superior and neither is inferior.  We are just a little different.

Hugs

Jen

People can get along if they have mutual respect. 

I do get what you mean where some people think they're the be-all and end-all of any gender related discussion.  I often feel like FAAB non-binaries are looked down upon by many transgender (binary) women.  I have seen many discussions where a FAAB non-binary says something that is disagreed with by trans woman and FAABs get quite the sh** thrown at them, I have been told that I have "no right" to come to certain conclusions about things since I am FAAB -- hence why I don't really discuss gender with anyone unless I am willing get to smeared. 

I don't think these nasty comments that I have had either directed at me or seen directed at others is necessarily representative of a substantial portion of the binary trans community. Most nasty comments I see are on facebook groups and other places; not on Susans that I can recall. . .   

QuoteThey wilfully derail topics to make things about them; give advice about hrt and the like to non binaries like they're stupid

I do see this (though I don't always perceive it as "willfully derailing") mainly in the non-transitioning section.  I would prefer to have a male body but have made the choice not to medically transition and am content with that.  In that section of the board, I do get the vibe when pro-transitioners come in that they're saying (and many times it's not even hidden) that people who decide not to transition will regret it one day, will eventually transition, or are not transitioning for the wrong reasons.  I don't always see this as them intentionally trying to derail or intentionally trying to talk to people like others are stupid and don't know better, but I think many times when people are truly happy in what they do or truly believe in something they have done, they can't help but want to share what they saw as a positive experience.  I also think another part of that is they just don't get it. 

I do think people can get along, with some work from those on all sides. I have many binary friends, who know I don't believe gender is anything aside from a social construction, and who know that I believe sex is not a social construction (which is apparently quite the unpopular thought right now) and we get along just fine. 

I dunno, Anon...  I post in MTF and FTM boards here and I haven't gotten any flak for it*.  I did go to a female-identified support group one time, and I felt a little awkward because I said something that suggested a nonbinary experience and the room kinda just went silent.  And they spent the majority of the time talking about a surgery I'm not interested in.

I have met some binary transgender people who have problems with us.  Summarizing the arguments I've heard... We're too visible, which makes them easier to spot (to the contrary, when I stand next to a moderately-passing transwoman, she's upgraded to fully-passing); we want to pee but would prefer neutral signage, they'd rather people just weren't aware that anything is different; we want to deconstruct gender roles (or in some cases, we want to deconstruct gender altogether), and they celebrate their gender roles.

Like the transgender / intersex "rift," we're allies... but we don't actually have the same needs or desires.  There's a lot of overlap, but it's not 100% by any means.  There's lots of population overlap since some people with intersex conditions identify as transgender; and many binary people spend some time identifying as nonbinary and vice verse.  And of course... every individual has their own unique set of opinions.

* I'd like to clarify this a bit.  I "derail" binary-identified threads by "talking about myself."  The reason that I talk about myself is that I dislike giving advice.  I can only speak to my own experience, and I try not to tell others how to live their lives.  I suspect that this is true of at least some of the binary "derailers" in your experience.  An important consideration in any conflict is whether or not the message you received is the message that was sent.

I've found the binary folk on this website are in general very supportive of us. True, they don't always understand us, and I've been trying for years to understand them (with some success). But I rarely see the behavior you describe. Occasionally there is a bad actor that it takes a little while for the mods to deal with, but I have always felt comfortable talking about binary issues.

That being said, we sometimes have to have a thick skin in the face of uninformed comments. People have objected to my "Woman Wannabe" gender marker ("You already are a woman!") until I explain to them that as a non-binary person, that's an accurate description of how my gender feels to me, even after years of living full time in a female presentation. I've learned to accept that I am non-binary and will never completely see myself as a woman. Binary folk have difficulty with that.

I find it helps to be slow to take offense and quick to educate.

There's always a subset of people who are going to be difficult and vocal about it. Most (I hope) are neither. Personally I'm very accepting of these things, but I don't go out of my way to say so. Just ignore the idiots.

There's a big difference between Susans and other sites. There's way more moderation and rules here, and that's a really good thing in this particular case.

I think we can get along if we try.

Just try to understand the other sides point of view and the issues we all deal with.

The language of non binary can be confusing and seems to change quickly.  They/zer/only use proper nouns... etc.  I don't mean offense if I don't now what to say.

The idiosyncrasies of the individual make understanding the group difficult for me personally. Some people honestly seem the don't want to get along no matter what.

The reactions by some non binary people to even the slightest perceived slight can be quite prolonged and intense.

I think it's hypocritical and counter productive to dismiss non binary people, but i might be saying that because I'm not really binary myself... i just want to be visually/physically binary...

It's a shame that there are people out there - cis and trans - that don't realise that deconstructing gender roles really benefits everyone. Freedom within a criteria isn't really freedom...

In binary trans people, the hostility does probably come from insecurity though. Affirmation from society comes from being binary and non binary individuals can rock binary trans people as much as any trans or non binary person rocks cis people. It's important to just get past it and do your own thing, define yourself by what you are and not what you aren't.

What I've seen (not very often fortunately) is people who seem to have the idea that there is One True Way to be trans.

There's one trans woman I know in real life who, when I described myself as "possibly M2F", said something like, "no dear.  It's WBT -- woman born trans.  We were always women" in a tone that did not invite disagreement.  I have a great deal of respect for her otherwise, but this convinced me that she is not the person who I would discuss my transgender feelings and confusions with.

On this site, I've occasionally seen a poster be rather arrogant towards people who they thought were not dealing with their situation in the right way, including calling them mentally ill and saying they should check into a hospital.  I don't know what the mods did about it, the person is still posting.  One such case was IMHO the trigger for the stoush which resulted in most of the active NBs leaving susans.org.  So, yeah, susans.org is not immune from this.

I don't know a lot of NB people (well, I don't know all that many trans people, period), but I did meet a lot at the Phila. Trans-Health Conf.  They were mostly younger (in their teens or 20's), and from what I could see got along less because of identifying as the same thing as because they cared about one another and were willing to accept and respect and even defend one another's peculiarities.  (E.g., correct me when I misgendered one of their number, which I did rather often, I'm sorry to say.)

I think the key is respect, especially respecting that behaviors, identies, and sensitivities that you don't understand.  Just as we trans people would like cis people to respect our understanding of our own gender, our name and pronoun preferences, and our choices as to how to deal with the conflict between our own needs and identities and the outside world (e.g., transition or not), whether or not they understand them.

Quote from: Asche on November 28, 2015, 12:10:41 PM
What I've seen (not very often fortunately) is people who seem to have the idea that there is One True Way to be trans.

There's one trans woman I know in real life who, when I described myself as "possibly M2F", said something like, "no dear.  It's WBT -- woman born trans.  We were always women" in a tone that did not invite disagreement.  I have a great deal of respect for her otherwise, but this convinced me that she is not the person who I would discuss my transgender feelings and confusions with.

On this site, I've occasionally seen a poster be rather arrogant towards people who they thought were not dealing with their situation in the right way, including calling them mentally ill and saying they should check into a hospital.  I don't know what the mods did about it, the person is still posting.  One such case was IMHO the trigger for the stoush which resulted in most of the active NBs leaving susans.org.  So, yeah, susans.org is not immune from this.

I don't know a lot of NB people (well, I don't know all that many trans people, period), but I did meet a lot at the Phila. Trans-Health Conf.  They were mostly younger (in their teens or 20's), and from what I could see got along less because of identifying as the same thing as because they cared about one another and were willing to accept and respect and even defend one another's peculiarities.  (E.g., correct me when I misgendered one of their number, which I did rather often, I'm sorry to say.)

I think the key is respect, especially respecting that behaviors, identies, and sensitivities that you don't understand.  Just as we trans people would like cis people to respect our understanding of our own gender, our name and pronoun preferences, and our choices as to how to deal with the conflict between our own needs and identities and the outside world (e.g., transition or not), whether or not they understand them.

Well it comes a little bit that the umbrella term transgender is confusing.  It lumps different things together under a vague common definition.  This confuses the public and those in the LGBT community.  Transsexuals feel we are put down for being transsexual.  I know I do.  My using trassexual rather isn't an insult it is just clarification. 

We should each have pride in our respective category of transgender.  No one is more legitimate than another, but it isn't bad to clarify the differences.  I want surgery.  I identify as female.  My goals in life are to fit into the binary. 

It's very simple

There are Binary folks and Non Binary folks    No problem, all are on their own path and all are welcome here at Susan's as long as they abide by site rules

Which brings up rule:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.

In other words, identify as you wish but don't go knocking other folks who may identify differently than you do

Everyone is different and that's okay

So Be Nice

With V M reminding everyone that you are all welcome as long as you accept everyone as equal I think this thread has run its course.

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