So I'm new at this particular site, though I have been on several others in the past and have left for various reasons.  I'll go ahead and mention that this is a long post.  I know that many in our community put alot of emphasis on pc, and to some extent for good reason.  I understand the hurt that can come from.intentionally insensitive words/actions.  Let me also preface thatyou opinions are shipped by my own experiences, andyou experience has been 95% positive.

I want to say that it doesn't offend me when someone asks about my genitals, I actually use this as a great starting point for trans education which most cis people lack.  It doesn't offend me when people who know me, and know I'm trans, refer to me as man/he/him.  I just really don't care, I know who I am, if it ever does irritate me, I simply say hey. If it looks like a duck...(I have not been misgendered by someone I don't know in over a year)

When I'm in casual conversation with friends, I refer to myself as a ->-bleeped-<- on a regular basis, and I don't think there is anything wrong with this, I have only had a few people call me a ->-bleeped-<- to my face, and they were family and being rude, and I told them so.  However I didn't have a meltdown.

I think I'm truly fed up with the pc police in liberal news, and inside our own community, there is a limit to what is sane and rational.  Everyone as a right to have their gender affirmed, everyone does not have the right to walk into the girls loo the day they come out.  I'm sorry but if you say your a girl, and are still wearing an Abe Lincoln beard, you do not belong in the lady's room.

If someone is being rude or being a bully, don't put your head down and trot away (run fast if it's night, your alone, etc) lift your head up, loom them dead in the eye, tell um to ->-bleeped-<- off, don't be pc and ask them nicely to treat you x way, we have to own ourselves.

Now having said that, I am a privileged, white, attractive woman with money, education, and live in a fairly safe suburban area with a fairly liberal minded people, so I understand that my experience is not the norm, I wasn't kicked out of my house, my family loves me just the same, I've never been homeless and destitute.   Please don't take my rant as anything other then a rant.

I do understand why folks need this to be a safe space. Also the more plain and non threatening the language the less argument is likely to disrupt things.

But I totally get you on your experience with folks in the real world. I know myself so well and when friends/family and acquaintances do it by mistake, well okay. I get it. Also, I keep delaying my name change. I wanted to do it desperately at first but the more I passed the more I missed being a question. Now the only time I get misgendered by strangers is when they have access to my whole name. Then the fun starts. I get to know who is cool as they will shorten my birth name to the more andro version without asking. Or I get a si....r? Which makes me laugh. And bigots just show their true colors. It gives me power. Also, during this past year I found I quite like the non-binary space. Hrt has kinda stolen that from me so my name gives me more of what I want. I am less binary. Female but kinda not, kinda butch infact. I might keep my gender marker too. The first time I was refered to in print (in a paper and staples magazine decades ago) the person said she/he? And I liked that. I still do. So long as the she comes first. I get mistaken for an early transition ftm a lot.

In my day to day I can be quite foul mouthed. My father, who is very respectful and supportive let a ->-bleeped-<- slip the other day. It fit because of the dynamic of our relationship. But around some folks I just won't use it because I know how it makes them feel. I can't use the word guys for mixed gender groups around my Mom because she hates the male universal. I have a poc friend who tries to make me use racial epithets I have many others who don't think anyone should, ever. So I try to taylor my language for situations.

It is like my using they/them/theirs as my fallback pronouns for other folks until they specify. I also come from a suburban liberal background and try to check my privilege. It isn't "pc" it is basic respect. The bawdy among us must respect the more sensitive (I can be super sensitive about some things too) or less jokey if we want them to respect our sometimes foul and casual ways. 

Oh and I actually have to restrain myself from sharing too much info. I love seeimg cis guys cringe when I talk about srs. Who's tough now! Ha! But yeah, I will answer any questions people have. I love teaching moments.

I know what you mean, and in this part of the world is pretty much the same. I have never been misgendered and I don't think that someone ever even stared at me.

I'm not picky at all with pronouns or names. But the T word... ugh, If a trans girl friend of mine called me a ->-bleeped-<- in a friendly manner during girltalk, i'd probably laugh along, but I think that I would be offended if a non-trans called me a ->-bleeped-<-.

Probably because of the negative connotation that the word has and because I consider myself a decent woman. It's probably one of my biggest fears since I began transitioning. I don't want to be confused for a prostitute.

I understand that people need time to adjust and when family and friends accidentally call me by my old name i don't make a scene. Except for some random confusion sometimes as regards pronouns, every single person that i came out to has been extremely supporting and kind. I can't complain.

I kind of feel the same way. I like to think that I am able to read intent behind inappropriate questions when they do come up. Many people want to be supportive or at the very least respectful, but they don't know how. 90% of the time I am perfectly happy taking on the role of educator, helping people understand something that they have never encountered before. If a coworker asked about surgery I would politely remind them that this is not an  appropriate topic of conversation in the workplace. If a friend asks I would like to think that the question comes form a place of concern for my overall wellbeing, rather than an inquiry about the state of my genitals. After all, GCS is major surgery and all surgeries carry an inherent risk.

That being said, I suppose that I am fortunate in the respect that it has been over 18 months since the last time anyone said something intentionally derogatory to my face. If I had to endure some or the horrific treatment that people on this website have described, my attitude would likely be completely different. But the way things stand right now, I don't mind taking some of the heat for some of my brothers and sisters that can't.

I think there is a bigger issue though, when pc is pushed to far, when we ask not for equality, but special treatment, whe we tell people above the age of 50 that they have to change simply because we said so, we not only cause harm to ourselves and progress, we lose would be allies who would usually support us.  When we go to far overboard, people check out.  Is gender binary? No, is the binary state the norm? Yes.  We are animals that can talk, we have evolutionary triggers that can not be altered.  When someone sees something out of the ordinary, they react, alot of times in a negative way, not because they are evil or hateful, but because their brain is saying DANGER!  I think alittle chill would go along way.

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 08:22:47 AM
I think there is a bigger issue though, when pc is pushed to far, when we ask not for equality, but special treatment, whe we tell people above the age of 50 that they have to change simply because we said so, we not only cause harm to ourselves and progress, we lose would be allies who would usually support us.  When we go to far overboard, people check out.  Is gender binary? No, is the binary state the norm? Yes.  We are animals that can talk, we have evolutionary triggers that can not be altered.  When someone sees something out of the ordinary, they react, alot of times in a negative way, not because they are evil or hateful, but because their brain is saying DANGER!  I think alittle chill would go along way.

True, but the folks over 60 at this point, if they weren't hippies themselves they are of that generation. The generation of demanding change for the sake of the youth. "The times they are a changing" and "reap what ye have sewn". They are the folks who invented political correctness from what they had seen in the beginning of the racial civil rights era. Being cool about the natural human tendency to be shocked, and to react to change, understanding where a cis person who has never even known about trans folk is coming from, that is a comcern. But not to the detriment of those of us who require change. Yes grandma is going to say some words no one wants to hear but does it do her any good to patronize her? Just because someone is 90 years old does not mean they don't want to grow and understand the world. A music nerd friend recently shared a quote from a famous cellist called Pablo Casals. When asked why he still practiced at the age of 90 something he said "Of course, I continue to play and to practice. I think I would do so if I lived for another hundred years" and "I am perhaps the oldest musician in the world. I am an old man but in many senses a very young man. And this is what I want you to be, young, young all your life, and to say things to the world that are true."

People over 50 and don't get some unique privilege to act offensively.  If they can't find it within themselves to treat other people with respect then they deserve the same derision as anyone else.

It's not about respect, I get more respect from older people who disagree with my life then I do from younger people who don't care.  It's about instant gratification and the idea that just because we say so, it must be.  Speaking truth to power is one thing, asking g for it to happen over night, and getting mad when it doesnt, is what children do, it's not what adults are supposed to do.  And I don't think they deserve derision, they grew up in a different time, with different moral standards. 

Quote from: Deborah on November 29, 2015, 09:16:29 AM
People over 50 and don't get some unique privilege to act offensively.  If they can't find it within themselves to treat other people with respect then they deserve the same derision as anyone else.

Exactly. And to further the point, there are plenty of trans folk at every age. From 5 to 90+ and they all deserve respect.

"pc" is just the counter to willful ignorance.

Then again "political correctness gone mad" is just a politically correct way to say "I'm too lazy to reassess my worldviews and/ or slightly modify my speech unless it directly benefits me"...

I don't see how a movement against cis-hetero-normativity can be bad for anyone other than the very few people relying on the binary system to prop them up. We can't pick and choose to what level we are accepted or we become part of the problem. For just one example, if we're saying only passable girls can use the ladies room, we're drawing another privilege line - one that excludes a certain percentage of cis women too!

I'm not saying only passable people can use the bathroom they want to, I'm saying it's a bit much to expect people to be comfortable taking a crap next to someone who just came out yesterday, compromise must happen, and logical thought must happen, just saying I'm allowed is not enough when you want to change stuff, and you have to allow for those opposing you to have a say, for that say to be respected, thought about objectively, and discussed rationally.

There is a quote from the American president that I absolutely love.

America isn't easy. America, is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center-stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

And that I think sums up what I feel, I love my brothers and sisters in this community, and I will fight for everyone of them, but I won't call them names, insult them, or not take into consideration their concerns, no matter how much I disagree with them.

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 09:21:19 AM
And I don't think they deserve derision, they grew up in a different time, with different moral standards.

I'm over 50 and I know what time they grew up in.  If their families raised them to be idiots they should be put in their place.  I was raised by Republican father who grew up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s and I was raised to treat people with kindness and respect regardless of social status, race, sexual orientation, religion or any other thing that was different.  There was nothing unique about the 1970s and before that makes people offensive idiots.  That is their own choice and they can live with the consequences, old or not.

Here is a story about those times.  My cousins actually were pretty racist.  I was overseas and got married to a person of another race (Asian).  I was concerned about their reaction when I came back and was prepared to disown the whole lot.  But there was only kindness and total acceptance.  Even back then people knew better and could choose to be decent human beings.

And that's what I'm talking about, calling people idiots because they disagree with you.

Btw, am thoroughly enjoying this conversation

I don't completely disagree, and while I think you have the right to conduct yourself as you see fit, I completely understand the backlash against certain levels of political correctness, but I think that is because the definition of being PC is about not offending or putting a minority group at a disadvantage with your speech.  A lot of times it goes too far and is no longer about what it is supposed to be about. 

The problem is when people want to intentionally use language that would offend or even put a group at a disadvantage.  For society's culture to say it is perfectly okay to target an individual or group with offensive speech or disadvantage is what PC is all about, and I do not think it is wrong to fight for it.

I don't think many of the things are horrible as far as mis-gendering if they are just done on accident.   If you correct somebody but don't make a big deal about it, they usually get better at gendering correctly over time.  If somebody does it out of malice, then it is best to consider it politically incorrect and ask them not to do so.  I think the transgender community would not wish for it to be socially acceptable by society to purposefully misgender us out of mal-intent.  I myself would never give concession to those with extreme opposing viewpoints who also wish to completely dismantle our movement. 

Quote from: Deinewelt on November 29, 2015, 09:48:49 AM


The problem is when people want to intentionally use language that would offend or even put a group at a disadvantage.  For society's culture to say it is perfectly okay to target an individual or group with offensive speech or disadvantage is what PC is all about, and I do not think it is wrong to fight for it.

I.like this, this is perhaps a better state nt of my views,  when rush Limbaugh, (whom I happen to enjoy listening to, I know I know ) calls us ->-bleeped-<-s, I take a huge offense.  I take offense every time my mother in law tells the waiter I'm a he, not a her, but when my wife jokingly says hey you it, I don't take offense, because I know that she is just joking with me

Quote from: Deinewelt on November 29, 2015, 09:48:49 AM
I don't completely disagree, and while I think you have the right to conduct yourself as you see fit, I completely understand the backlash against certain levels of political correctness, but I think that is because the definition of being PC is about not offending or putting a minority group at a disadvantage with your speech.  A lot of times it goes too far and is no longer about what it is supposed to be about. 

The problem is when people want to intentionally use language that would offend or even put a group at a disadvantage.  For society's culture to say it is perfectly okay to target an individual or group with offensive speech or disadvantage is what PC is all about, and I do not think it is wrong to fight for it.

I don't think many of the things are horrible as far as mis-gendering if they are just done on accident.   If you correct somebody but don't make a big deal about it, they usually get better at gendering correctly over time.  If somebody does it out of malice, then it is best to consider it politically incorrect and ask them not to do so.  I think the transgender community would not wish for it to be socially acceptable by society to purposefully misgender us out of mal-intent.  I myself would never give concession to those with extreme opposing viewpoints who also wish to completely dismantle our movement. 

This ^^^ Politically correct speech is at the head of a chain that leads to things like lowering levels of violence - from careless speech, to verbal abuse, to physical abuse. It also indicates to society at large that the issues are real and serious and that the shift has gone from supporters of minorities being themselves a minority, to being a majority. Dismantling PC speech dismantles the idea that the minorities are at a disadvantage at all, which at the moment we clearly are, although things are changing - because of people challenging exclusive and bigoted views and not being willing to be silenced under the guise of 'respect for freedom of speech'.

If we allow opinions to be expressed in hateful ways the feeling is that these opinions and the violence and intolerance that are an extension of these are acceptable. Even in grayer situations like Germaine Greer's 'opinion not prohibition' situation, I don't necessarily agree with no-platforming, but leaving that kind of personal view publicly unchallenged is dangerous because although she means no physical harm to trans women, her views will be used to justify more extreme views by others. She already said that women have approached her thanking her for saying things they were 'too afraid' to say about trans women. And so the ball keeps rolling.

That's not to say that flinging insults back is productive, but real political correctness isn't tit-for-tat insults anyway.

No, it's not, inyou mind, real pc, is about respect for all parties involved