Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 10:16:32 AM
No, it's not, inyou mind, real pc, is about respect for all parties involved

... respect for all parties involved while acknowledging the inherent privilege of one particular party. In that, for example with pronouns, the cis gendered party already respect by default. We don't have to listen to their arguments against us having the right to our correct pronouns before they extend us the same respect. Some issues should not be up for uninvited debate - in fact I think that treating gender like a political choice is dangerous. What if you lose the polite rational debate? Time to detransition? (joke)

I think though that your main point is that we can gain ground on civil liberties without being openly horrible to people? Which is fair. I mean to come back to my example above: it'd be a bit of a petty move to demonstrate the default privilege that the hypothetical cis person has by referring to them as 'it'. :P

Yes that's my point

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 09:47:07 AM
And that's what I'm talking about, calling people idiots because they disagree with you.

No.  I couldn't care less if someone disagrees with me.  I call people idiots who go out of their way to treat others like crap for any reason at all.

I also do not take offense often, but this comes with privilege. I can handle a little joking around about MY situation, and I am more than willing to joke right back.

The problem arises from generalized statements about the transgender community. This casual transphobia is what gets us KILLED. This speech socializes everyone to believe that transgender = bad. It is the reason suicide can seem like a more realistic option than transition. It is the reason people are hesitant to date us, no matter how open minded they believe themselves to be. It is the reason we are targets for harassment and violence every time we walk out the door.

The ability to change this way of thinking starts with AWARENESS of the things you say. Many are not aware of how our speech can affect others. By pointing out signs of transphobia to others, you help them become aware and change their own patterns of speech. This helps them to become better allies, and one day they will be able to correct others as well. Imagine the day when you are with a group of friends and one says "just make sure your date doesn't have a dick" to try to get some laughter, and another friend pipes in "saying things like that are what get trans people killed". That is an excellent ally who shut down the laughter and brought awareness to the group.

Always check your privilege. You may have the ability to be around accepting friends and joke about this stuff in a safe environment, whereas someone is out there on the streets, rejected by friends and family, struggling to survive. I would challenge you to use this privilege as a way to spread change for the better of all of us, and it starts by pointing out transphobic speech.

If someone makes an offensive comment innocently there is no harm intended and no offense should be taken.  That's not a PC issue.  It's simply lack of knowledge.

Comments directed with ill intent are the issue for PC.

I agree that turning everything into a PC crisis make us the stupid sounding ones.

In my opinion, if someone doesn't care how people talk to them, and treat them, they are clearly lacking self esteem. Has it ever occurred to you that when people jokingly use derogatory terms, that they aren't joking, and are using that light hearted attitude as a guise to continually degrade and humiliate you?

Yes.  It's all about reading the other person and understanding their intent.  That's easy to do in person but harder over the Internet or in other written forms.

I don't want to be reduced to the sum of my genitals. It's not about education for most people. Even if you educate them they will use your genital status to mock you. Maybe you haven't had it really bad yet. I don't know how much out and about you are, but if you live full time it's a different game.

The word "->-bleeped-<-" bothers me if applied in the same way as the "n word" bothers a black person. Among trans friends? Not so much... ditto the N word among african-americans. It's not really the word. It's the intent. The intent may be to mock, ridicule and treat you as lesser. That's the real problem, not necessarily the word itself.

QuoteI think I'm truly fed up with the pc police in liberal news, and inside our own community, there is a limit to what is sane and rational.  Everyone as a right to have their gender affirmed, everyone does not have the right to walk into the girls loo the day they come out.  I'm sorry but if you say your a girl, and are still wearing an Abe Lincoln beard, you do not belong in the lady's room.

Give me an objective standard of what it is like to look female and I will agree with you. But you can't, so I can't agree with you.

Do you know that if that pic in your avatar is truly you, some people would do a double take if they see you in a women's restroom? In some countries this can get you killed. In some parts of the US it can even get you arrested. It's especially true if your voice is still masculine and you dress androgynously. 

Quote from: kittenpower on November 29, 2015, 11:14:10 AM
In my opinion, if someone doesn't care how people talk to them, and treat them, they are clearly lacking self esteem. Has it ever occurred to you that when people jokingly use derogatory terms, that they aren't joking, and are using that light hearted attitude as a guise to continually degrade and humiliate you?

OK let me do this one first, I actually have a very high opinion of myself, bordering on egotism, no it has never occurred to me that they are secretly being derogatory as I have known these people my entire life, and they supported me before I even supported myself.  I care very much how I'm treated, I want to be treated just like everyone else, I don't want special treatment, I don't want people to feel as though they are walking on thin glass around me. 

Quote

"If someone says something that offends you, tell them, but all women don't have to think alike. . . . I like when the guys tease me. It's an inadvertent show of respect; I'm part of the team, and I don't mind it when it gets sexual. And you know what, I like sex. . . . I don't think whatever sexuality I have diminishes my power. I think it enhances it."
When asked if someone could not find a different way to pay a compliment.

He would be able to, but that isn't the point. The point is that sexual revolution tends to get in the way of actual revolution. Nonsense issues distract attention away from real ones: pay equity, child care, honest-to-God sexual harassment


I love arrow sorkin.

Give an objective standard, no I can't do that, but I can say that the duck dynasty guys probably don't belong in the girls head.

 Don't mind answering any personal questions or answering what genitallia I have down there. In fact, I enjoy answering these personal questions because I feel that they are interested and that is much better than judging and avoiding me. At thanksgiving I saw family I haven't seen Ina long time and at one point they were all drilling me with questions and kept apologizing for doing so I continuously told them they can ask me whatever they want it's entertaining to me. As far as mis gendering goes I do not tolerate that, I don't get misgendered much but certainly have. The thing is with me that they can't use it as an excuse of being confused because they clearly see me dressing looking acting female so why even say sir that's just rude. Although I am confident in who I am I still don't like the excuse of them being confused. Now if someone yells something like man or ->-bleeped-<- which hasn't happened but if it did I would probably just flip my hair and walk confidently past them to own it. I feel like ->-bleeped-<- isn't that bad of a word to me and I don't mind it if people I know say it sometimes.


Penis misgender ->-bleeped-<- personal questions

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 12:48:22 PM
Give an objective standard, no I can't do that, but I can say that the duck dynasty guys probably don't belong in the girls head.

Obviously. That is one extreme.

People have been harassed for looking "borderline." Like you. Like me. Like many trans women. Like some cis women.

In the end we have to trust people and prosecute actual crimes when they happen.

O and honestly, and this is just my hyper sense of self confidence, but the only double take I usually get is from someone looking at my ass.

I honestly think my personal confidence is why people don't second guess that I'm anything other than what I say I am,  when I use the head I walking in, I say hello to anyone standing around, maybe make some chit chat, I do my buisness, I don't look hesitant or shifty

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 01:03:13 PM
O and honestly, and this is just my hyper sense of self confidence, but the only double take I usually get is from someone looking at my ass.

Trust me, people see things in us. That is why some of us go for FFS and body contouring etc. This is why we take hormones. (not everyone does it for that reason, I realize that we do it to see ourselves as we envision ourselves.)

I am really trying to be nice here but I know people who would definitely clock you. I know people who would clock me. That's just how it is and we don't have the fallback defense of being cisgender. Once arrested, your old name will come up in the computer as an AKA. Especially if you transitioned in your current state of residence.

The bottom line is that not all of us have passing privilege and very few of us can say we've never been clocked or can never be clocked. It's that 0.01% chance that someone could yell out "man in the women's bathroom!!!" and call the cops, then it's all over.

We want to avoid that. It's not about "duck dynasty in the ladies" at all.

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on November 29, 2015, 01:03:13 PM
O and honestly, and this is just my hyper sense of self confidence, but the only double take I usually get is from someone looking at my ass.

Lol

Anyone will get clocked even if you are the most passable trans woman everyone deals with it as some point

Quote from: kittenpower on November 29, 2015, 11:14:10 AM
In my opinion, if someone doesn't care how people talk to them, and treat them, they are clearly lacking self esteem. Has it ever occurred to you that when people jokingly use derogatory terms, that they aren't joking, and are using that light hearted attitude as a guise to continually degrade and humiliate you?

This^

I may not have the eloquence to express my opinion on this site coz it seems like there's a lot of political views being shared with how people should treat us. In my own simple view about this topic, if I dress and act as a woman you should treat me as one. Yes, we cannot force acceptance to people but respect should always be there.

If someone is not offended by misgendering, I am happy for you. I for one, will not tolerate misgendering. It is complete disrespect of my gender expression and identity.

Btw, jokes are half meant. I would assume everyone knows that

xoxo

I think it boils down to some people are OK with being disrespected while most simply want respect.

Call the average woman a "ho" and it won't go down very well. But there are few who don't mind it and it seems as though they don't have much self respect.

That said, apart from my one colleague I was talking about in the other thread I haven't had to correct anyone in a long time. Female pronouns are the default now, even when dressed completely male (as I do very rarely).

Quote from: NataliaDoll on November 29, 2015, 01:12:44 PM
Lol

Truly 😊😉

And yes I did get clocked plenty when I first started doing this. That was 2.5 years ago.