Okay, I see. I will have to try to look around at some photos. I guess I am lucky that Dr. Spiegel is close by if his forehead type will suit me best!

I dunno about Gigi and her chin. Does she say she had her chin done? Is it visibly changed? Maybe she asked him to go minimal on it? I guess it doesn't really matter - I just want him to fix me up right!

Carmen Carrera had her jaw and chin done by him.  Also Jenna the one from Canada who was contesting to be Ms Canada had full ffs by him.  That's to name a few.  Gigi did full ffs by him, but personally I dont think she looks good at all.  Cassandra Cass did full ffs with him last year.  Ava Glasscott did full ffs with him as well.  Try googling these names and you can find photos. 

Some of the girls look too overdone, and overdone doesn't help with passing or blending to lead a normal life.  That's why I personally suggest doing minimal work and fully healing, then reevaluate and go from there.  You want to keep some features with a natural look.  That why I suggest doing bone work only then down the line doing soft tissue cosmetic work, nose cheeks ect, as you don't want to come out looking like a wax figure as some girls do.  I would personally suggest only doing your forehead, chin and jaw.  Then after 2 years doing your nose, cheeks ect.

I had my nose done in 1996, it was the first surgery I ever had.  It turned out perfect because it's not perfect, and because it's not perfect it looks natural.  Also after 20 years of hrt, it looks so different on my face as it did in 1996.  I will say 20 years of hrt did more for my face then any surgery I ever had.  Less is best

Thank you Danielle for those names to search and for your input on the best way to approach this stuff.

I must say they look pretty good (obv.) but I can see what you mean, they're not-so-natural. You look good, did you do your forehead? I'm worried if I don't do my nose now it won't blend properly with my forehead.

The other half of the situation is that the money will not be there unless I make it myself which is likely to take more than a couple years considering the debts I carry. This FFS is a gift from my parents who recognize my struggle and I am very lucky to have the opportunity. So I am leaning towards doing as much as I can.

I actually crave the kind of image those models have. In fact my dreams are in dancing, modeling, wild success, "public consumption"... I might regret it later in life, sure, but right now I want to go stealth and dance in a high $ club if possible. Perhaps I could get in with an agency as a trans model.

Right now I am wrestling with the idea of calling to schedule forehead, rhinoplasty, and chin/jaw. Katie has not emailed me back yet... but... I think the cheeks can wait.

No I never touched my forehead it was never a problem.  Stealth requires a natural look, so be careful.  A lot of the girls I listed have an animated look and can't live stealth.  Also the nose is very very important as it's the center of your face, I personally don't think Dr S does good noses.  Everyone has their strong points.  I am seeking revison on my chin after Dr Spegal.  Surgery is a gamble. 

Quote from: Danielle11746 on December 10, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
No I never touched my forehead it was never a problem.  Stealth requires a natural look, so be careful.  A lot of the girls I listed have an animated look and can't live stealth.  Also the nose is very very important as it's the center of your face, I personally don't think Dr S does good noses.  Everyone has their strong points.  I am seeking revison on my chin after Dr Spegal.  Surgery is a gamble.

An animated look? I know they kinda look like they had work done, but that might preclude them from living stealth? Plenty of women have work done, don't they?

I thought Dr. Spiegel would be THE guy to go to if you wanted to be stealth, for his "natural" look and "subtle" work... but then again... it looks like he really will be fairly aggressive if you ask for it.

You're right surgery IS a gamble. I think you're right too that the nose is important... I don't think mine's "good enough but it's close... perhaps he won't have to do much to make it look right? I am pretty convinced that I should have him fix it while he does my forehead...

Sorry if this might sound counterproductive to you, but it's really hard for me to see you needing any surgery at all. You look very feminine in my eyes. I don't see you having noticeable bossing... I don't even see a noticeable trachea. Maybe just maybe some cheek filling. The cheeks are perhaps a bit too sunken in the second picture and that's the only one where I see a hint of masculinity, but still, overall in my eyes your face looks very feminine to me and based on all but the second picture you look 100 percent female to me.

I can see now a bit of forehead protrusion on closer look, but I don't think it's worth fixing with surgery because your eyes are not hooded or sunken, your orbital rims are great, which in my opinion is the determining factor in how forehead makes someone look masculine or feminine.

Your nose is also totally awesomely feminine, don't see any point in touching it.

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on December 10, 2015, 07:01:27 PM
Sorry if this might sound counterproductive to you, but it's really hard for me to see you needing any surgery at all. You look very feminine in my eyes. I don't see you having noticeable bossing... I don't even see a noticeable trachea. Maybe just maybe some cheek filling. The cheeks are perhaps a bit too sunken in the second picture and that's the only one where I see a hint of masculinity, but still, overall in my eyes your face looks very feminine to me and based on all but the second picture you look 100 percent female to me.

I can see now a bit of forehead protrusion on closer look, but I don't think it's worth fixing with surgery because your eyes are not hooded or sunken, your orbital rims are great, which in my opinion is the determining factor in how forehead makes someone look masculine or feminine.

Your nose is also totally awesomely feminine, don't see any point in touching it.

Hmm, not at all... I welcome your opinion. I've been told this by friends and family, and had friends of my parents' tell them the same.

When I look at myself in those photos I don't see a pretty woman... I sometimes still have trouble passing and I think my face is sometimes the issue...  especially my forehead and jaw/chin. Perhaps I should put the rhinoplasty money into breasts, but I figure I want the whole package, especially if I wanna be a dancer or a model. :/

I looked at the pictures again some more, and I think on second thought what mattered more in the second picture is the flat chin line.

So I would perhaps suggest to go first for mandible contouring and only after that consider either cheek work or forehead reconstruction, and I doubt there would be a need to do both after mandible contouring. Even so, I felt like I had to try and look for masculinity in your face to spot it. If I wasn't trying hard to look for masculinity in your face I wouldn't have noticed it which is why I'm not sure you need surgery at all.

Again, as far as your nose, it has a tiny little bump, but that doesn't stop it from looking ultra feminine in my eyes. I don't think it's worth touching it. It's not thick, it has a nice upward angle. I would put nose at the level of nuance correction, much like your seemingly none existent and if it does exist it's really tiny and hidden trachea... then again if you do forehead reconstruction that might necessarily entail changing the nose to fit with the new forehead.

Regarding breasts, I'm not objective because I'm not much of a breast person. To me personally, breasts aren't what make or break being recognized as female. Lots of cis women have naturally tiny breasts. For me personally, breasts is the last priority after face is fixed, and even then I might not care, but that's just me. Then again, for me my face does not look nearly as passable as yours, whereas for you the face problems are at the level of nuance, so breast augmentation might help shift the balance so that people would never "believe" the masculine nuances even if they spotted them... whereas in my case, breast augmentation won't help at all until my face is significantly different.

Even if you want to eventually do the whole package deal, if your funds are limited now you should do what gives the biggest results first in my opinion... but since everything in your face is in the level of nuance, it's hard to say which part will give the biggest impact.

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 10, 2015, 06:52:59 PM
An animated look? I know they kinda look like they had work done, but that might preclude them from living stealth? Plenty of women have work done, don't they?

I thought Dr. Spiegel would be THE guy to go to if you wanted to be stealth, for his "natural" look and "subtle" work... but then again... it looks like he really will be fairly aggressive if you ask for it.

You're right surgery IS a gamble. I think you're right too that the nose is important... I don't think mine's "good enough but it's close... perhaps he won't have to do much to make it look right? I am pretty convinced that I should have him fix it while he does my forehead...

An animated look meaning a bit over done.  Yes many women have work done.  But when someone is 6 feet tall, has large hands and feet, a deeper then usually voice, combined with a lot of facial surgery, I think the masses can do the math.  So I am saying less sometimes is more.  I have a friend who hasn't had any work done and passes wonderfully, she isn't a beauty but she is passable, if she did full ffs and tried for a very beautiful astetic she wouldn't be as passable.  Remember beauty and passing are two different things, some girls have both and others have one or the other, and some have neither. 

Wow Danielle, I see what you mean now.

I am not quite that tall but still.. >.>

http://www.windsorstar.com/technology/space/cms/binary/6644415.jpg?size=640x420

This is not a very flattering photo of Jenna.

I pass fairly well. I certainly don't want to pass less often after FFS!

I want to be beautiful and pass... not be misgendered or obvious. My hands and feet are on the larger side of the "normal" female spectrum (US 11 shoes) and they are pretty femme... my voice is decent...

I want the icing on my cake, damnit... I just want to be hot.

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on December 10, 2015, 08:22:05 PM
I looked at the pictures again some more, and I think on second thought what mattered more in the second picture is the flat chin line.

So I would perhaps suggest to go first for mandible contouring and only after that consider either cheek work or forehead reconstruction, and I doubt there would be a need to do both after mandible contouring. Even so, I felt like I had to try and look for masculinity in your face to spot it. If I wasn't trying hard to look for masculinity in your face I wouldn't have noticed it which is why I'm not sure you need surgery at all.

Again, as far as your nose, it has a tiny little bump, but that doesn't stop it from looking ultra feminine in my eyes. I don't think it's worth touching it. It's not thick, it has a nice upward angle. I would put nose at the level of nuance correction, much like your seemingly none existent and if it does exist it's really tiny and hidden trachea... then again if you do forehead reconstruction that might necessarily entail changing the nose to fit with the new forehead.

Regarding breasts, I'm not objective because I'm not much of a breast person. To me personally, breasts aren't what make or break being recognized as female. Lots of cis women have naturally tiny breasts. For me personally, breasts is the last priority after face is fixed, and even then I might not care, but that's just me. Then again, for me my face does not look nearly as passable as yours, whereas for you the face problems are at the level of nuance, so breast augmentation might help shift the balance so that people would never "believe" the masculine nuances even if they spotted them... whereas in my case, breast augmentation won't help at all until my face is significantly different.

Even if you want to eventually do the whole package deal, if your funds are limited now you should do what gives the biggest results first in my opinion... but since everything in your face is in the level of nuance, it's hard to say which part will give the biggest impact.

Thank you for the input... I really am quite convinced I want the forehead reconstruction... I think my frontal sinus is pretty pronounced in my profile view... maybe I'm hypersensitive...? Maybe I should have Alexandra do a photo of me to see what parts of my face fits/doesn't fit into the female range, and see what I might look like.

The mandible I am also pretty sold on... especially the height and shape of my chin and the width of my jaw vs. the sunken in cheeks. I don't mind a fairly strong jaw on a hot woman, however.

The nose... I don't know. You and Danielle have me thinking about whether I want to touch it or not. It's a lot of money, but I would hate to regret not doing it with my forehead later if/when I don't feel like my nose is "good enough".

Like I said, I want it all, I am a perfectionist, I want to pass and be beautiful. I don't want to overdo it. I have a hard time buying a $60 waist cincher on Amazon... choosing what to do with my face is overwhelming!

Dr. Spiegel did say that his priorities would be forehead, mandible, then cheeks, then nose...

I have been leaning towards the nose because of

1.) the money maybe not being there later and fillers for cheeks being so much cheaper

2.) the nose and forehead look best if they're done together  is that true?

If I did forehead, mandible, and cheeks (or got a filler) I would have money for other transition things.

Breasts, I have decent natural ones, I am not rushing to get them done, but it might help me achieve my goals...

Maybe some more laser, laser on my bikini line, some skin resurfacing type stuff...? I don't know...?

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 10, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
Wow Danielle, I see what you mean now.

I am not quite that tall but still.. >.>

http://www.windsorstar.com/technology/space/cms/binary/6644415.jpg?size=640x420

This is not a very flattering photo of Jenna.

I pass fairly well. I certainly don't want to pass less often after FFS!

I want to be beautiful and pass... not be misgendered or obvious. My hands and feet are on the larger side of the "normal" female spectrum (US 11 shoes) and they are pretty femme... my voice is decent...

I want the icing on my cake, damnit... I just want to be hot.

Yes as with Jenna, most girls with a lot of work done look like they have had a lot of work done, and sometimes the work can look odd.  Like I always said hrt and a strong regime for many many years did more for my face then any surgery I have ever had.  It will give a softness that no surgery can achieve, but it's som thing that takes a good 10 yrs.  Good skin and good hair do a lot also.  I do believe your nose is something you should have done, but I think you should let your face settle after bone work before having it done.  Just personal thoughts. 

Danielle, here I am after 6 years of HRT, starting at age 18...

http://imgur.com/1kevmNC

That was before I detransitioned for ~2 yrs.

I try to take care of my skin and hair, sometimes I do better than others. You're right they make a big difference!  As does HRT.

I don't want to look like I've had much (if anything) done, but, I think I would like to have my nose done as well as these other things... I just don't know if I would rather trust Dr. Spiegel to knock out everything at once, or have another surgeon do a rhinoplasty later on down the road. A rhinoplasty is certainly not as hard to acquire as this bone work.

I guess it's all a compromise I have to take some risk by doing this...

What defines a lot? Is Forehead/nose/mandible a lot?

Did Jenna have more than just forehead/mandible/nose/cheeks? I still think Gigi looks decent but I am starting to see how her look isn't the ideal. I would rather look like her than me, though. I can always hope that I end up looking just right... ha.

I do like Jenna's look better, most of her pics look really good to me. Ava Glasscott looks good too but a little less natural. Neither is entirely natural.

So I did some meditation today.

I think my forehead and jaw/chin are at the level of a need.

I think my nose is a want... however... it's definitely a want...

I think Dr. S is going to do a good job on whatever I ask him to do.

The nose would be like the only soft tissue work on my face, I don't think it'll make a big difference for me looking plasticy if I get it done now vs later. Dr. S has that natural look reputation. He's so experienced, as long as he's having a good day and he's feeling the work I bet he will do amazing.

I can pass now like almost all the time. Clubs, the beach, swimming pool, bathrooms, Doctor offices. I look decent in makeup as long as it's well done and not "overdone".

The small % of the time in which I don't pass has definitely gotten under my skin. I think a lot of it I think is my confidence, letting my voice drop, and integration of my Self (feeling natural).

I really don't think Dr. S is gonna make me look plastic and if he did I think people would just assume I am a woman who had work done. I mean I've worked in the public eye as a salesperson in all manner of gender presentation, from straight male to completely androgynous, to my best feminine presentation. A lot of it is just perspective. I think maybe I'm overthinking this, blowing it out of the water.

I think there will always be someone that can spot me as a trans person no matter what I do to the total package. I don't think looking a little plastic is going to ruin me, if it happens. I'm not getting like a lip lift or fat in my lips.

I'd say I'm gonna wait on the cheeks but after all this I'm pretty set on scheduling forehead/nose/mandible. I appreciate all the input, ladies. I am totally open to hearing more opinions.

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 11, 2015, 12:15:12 AM


2.) the nose and forehead look best if they're done together  is that true?

Download the kindle FFS book by Dr. O. and read his explanation as to why it is essential to do the nose at the same time as the forehead.   

Quote from: myfairlady49 on December 11, 2015, 07:30:27 PM
Download the kindle FFS book by Dr. O. and read his explanation as to why it is essential to do the nose at the same time as the forehead.

Wow, thank you for pointing me to this... I will definitely check it out!

My forehead surgeon tells me the nose has to come last. I'm afraid he might be saying that only because he doesn't do nose surgery, and beaurecratically there is no way to get them done at once since they are different surgeons in different departments, and I'm having trouble getting them funded as it is... the insurance company waits until a day before the surgery to decide yes or no (so far has been "no" or "still being discussed" every time a surgery date came up) so even if I got the doctors to agree to meet on the same day and do both, I have no guarantee the insurance company will authorize both at once or even one of them.

I understand it's very important at least not to do nose before forehead.

Though it does seem to me quite logical that it's most ideal to do both at once.

Do you think it would be ok to do forehead and then nose?

it's not just ideal to do nose at the same time, with some Type III foreheads rhinoplasty really should be done at the same time.  For example my forehead.  If my nose was not done I was told there would be an apparent notch at the top of my nose.