Hi everyone. For the past year and a half I've been struggling with my gender identity. I've been off and on, back and forth for so long. However, now I have settled on being female for now. However there are still things that nag at me. Is it ok if I ask a few questions?

1. Is gender expression a learned trait or is it innate? I ask because whenever I watch a program about trans youth (trans girls in particular), they seem to have an expression that is stereotypical of their gender. I always thought that these things were learned, but with these kids it seems to be indicative of their gender. I guess what I'm really asking is, did these kids come by their expression because they saw it as being something that girls do or did it just come naturally to them?

2. Are things gendered or aren't they? One thing that I've learned on my gender journey is that gendering things is bad because anything can be for both girls and boys. However, the aforementioned trans youth, as well as gender creative or gender non-conforming youth, seem to gender things all the time. For them, wearing pink and playing with dolls is something that girls do or something that is considered girly. But I thought that we (as a society) were trying to shift away from saying things like that.

3. Is it necessary to seperate your gender expression from your gender identity? I feel like I needed to do this in order to know if I were truly trans or not. I feel like I've successfully done this. But then I started reading up on a lot of other trans people's experiences and a lot of it seemed wrapped up in gender expression (i.e. - they've always wanted to wear dresses or wanted pink things or wanted to be a princess for Halloween etc.). All of this made me feel like separating my expression from my identity was unnecessary. There are still times when my expression seems to motive my need to transition and validate my gender, but I push those feelings away because I feel like they should be seperate. Should I instead embrace them?

I think gender expression is an individual thing and that some trans people, especially many in the news, choose stereotypical things because it makes them feel better.

My example is my daughter who is CIS and I'm 99% sure isn't trans is a fitness instructor that hates pink frilly things.  She wouldn't be caught dead wearing anything at all like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To me, Gender Identity and Gender Expression are 2 separate things. Gender Identity is who you are, that never really changes. How you interprete your personal identity and portray it to others would be your gender expression.

Gender expression is both learned and innate... To me, it's how you have learned to interpret gender roles and apply them to your inherent personality.

I believe that society has gendered things. Things are just things. The gendering of things only has the power/validity that you give them.

You can't really separate gender identity and gender expression. They are 2 separate things already. Gender Expression is just a function of your gender identity... in my opinion.

Quote from: Harley Quinn on December 22, 2015, 11:55:18 AMI believe that society has gendered things. Things are just things. The gendering of things only has the power/validity that you give them.

Well, what happens when you come across someone with an opposing view? For example, let's say that me and a friend take our kids to a clothing store. I have a daughter and she has a son who wears girl's clothes. My daughter has been wanting a more girly wardrobe. We're in the girl's section and I make a comment to my daughter like "Here you go, you can find all the girly clothes you want here". This rubs my friend the wrong way because she's been trying to teach her son about being gender neutral or whatever. Am I in the wrong for not being gender neutral or should my friend realize that this is how me and my daughter see these types of clothes?

I too see expression as flowing out of identity. Gendering things is a choice we make and what is gendered male in some cultures is gendered female in others. Look at language that relies on gendered words, totally a construct.

In your example, you would really have to consider your audience as to how you would communicate that to the daughter. If you took an atheist into a beautiful European cathedral you might focus on the architecture and for a Christian you might talk about the spiritual experience of being there. Neither would be wrong. If they both were with you, you'd structure your presentation accordingly so it would have meaning for them.

Inherently there is nothing girlie about a nice dress. It is cloth, but when i wear one i feel pretty feminine and like the presentation of it.

So I'm not sure why we feel as a society we need to move away from gendering things. It is probably better to state, is that we need to be ok with things having no gender, having a gender, or having differing meanings to different people. That is when you reach equality and neutrality. A dress does not equal weak or sexual. A leather jacket does not equal strength and aloofness. A last example is Nudity is not sexual, we have fought hard as a society to separate sex from many things, which made it more equitable for everyone.

I'm going to sound really old here  🙁 But OMG I am really old!! Nearly 30 

But, as far as I know, in the bad old days we were either transsexuals seeking surgery or cross-dressers who put on pantomime frocks on a Saturday night. I know that wasn't true and thankfully we've moved on to a much better place, yet for me I think something of the essence of who we are (or who I am) has been lost in the gender furore.

I think that, as a full transsexual, we've somehow got ourselves stuck in this weird hinterland where there's some effort to push sex out of the mix and focus purely on a social construct - gender.

Gender is, I would say but you don't have to agree, made up whereas sexual characteristics are innate. To be plain: my sexual exterior doesn't match, in places, my sexual mind, soul and spirit. I am a woman but I've been lumbered by cruel accident with a few non-woman bits. Those can be removed and reformed into something better  😉 I don't mind males but I get on far better with women, they are my friends and my support network and my more favoured colleagues. How feminine they are is irrelevant; they range from completely butch lesbians and bikers to glam up girls who won't leave the house without eyeliner!!  🙂 The common factor is female-ness, if that's a thing, rather than femininity? I mean, I don't think a socially constructed idea of a woman makes a woman! For example drag queens aren't women. Men in dresses (not being controversial, I just mean that literally lol!!) aren't women.

Which leaves gender, to me the invented concept. It helps us to act out our particular roles but it doesn't define our sex. Men can wear make up and boys can play with dolls but they remain male. Male and female, I think, are ways of being and thinking - not which colour or shape your clothes are.

I'll stop there before I trip over my feminist soap box  😉 But I know that some of my ideas are old fashioned and perhaps not fully there with queer theory and stuff? I mean for me gender isn't important. I don't think society is going to be massively altered by women putting on overalls. The change would happen when she goes off to get them dirty in a factory somewhere. I don't want gender to define who I am, not really. I do, differently to that, want my sex to be seen correctly. xx

I would agree that society gets more tolerant of gender expression and gender roles.
Its not like in the sixties where certain things were expected.

And expression is individual.
I'd say simply be yourself... don't be self censoring...
if you feel girly put on what you like...
repression is not good...
the next day you might feel like wearing pants and having an androgynous look...

other people like to be girly all the time... just enjoy...


*hugs*

Quote from: FemPossible on December 22, 2015, 12:16:43 PM
Well, what happens when you come across someone with an opposing view? For example, let's say that me and a friend take our kids to a clothing store. I have a daughter and she has a son who wears girl's clothes. My daughter has been wanting a more girly wardrobe. We're in the girl's section and I make a comment to my daughter like "Here you go, you can find all the girly clothes you want here". This rubs my friend the wrong way because she's been trying to teach her son about being gender neutral or whatever. Am I in the wrong for not being gender neutral or should my friend realize that this is how me and my daughter see these types of clothes?

From the sound of it, you're saying that you believe them to be girl's clothes... So to you they're girl's clothes. The scenario that you're describing sounds more like a matter of courtesy than a point of view. If you believe your friend might take offense to that terminology, and you decide to use it anyway... then that's a matter of you chosing to put your beliefs ahead of your friend's feelings. Like wise, if your friend takes offense then that's their perogative. It's like debating religion... everyone has their own view and they all have varying degrees to which they will defend it. And like religion, it's up to the individual on how much they'd like to push it, or how tolerant of other views they wish to be. By using "Pretty" in place of girly, I believe that all feelings would be spared.

You ask really great questions, FemPossible. To my mind, societies (all, without exception) define cultural prescriptions for how to be "man" and how to be "woman." These prescriptions extend from clothing, to behavior, to occupation (and everything else). Western culture has defined a certain set of clothing that is acceptable for boys and men, and a different set (that has more flexibility than it used to have) for girls and women.

Western culture has also defined stereotypical behavior for men and women. Some fall short of the stereotype, others blow right past it into the land of caricature. How you choose to do your gender is up to you. If you want everyone with whom you interact to see you as a woman you'll need to do gender closely aligned with the stereotype (at least until your social identity is set). On the other hand, if you're interested in a more flexible expression, and don't mind other's confusion, pick and choose that which makes you feel best.

I think we all need to find what space on the gender continuum we want to inhabit. That's not an easy thing when first starting out. It will require some trial and error (hopefully not too much of that). You can also expect what is comfortable today will be different sooner or later. Cis women all go through this, so it's not a "trans thing."

Quote from: Missy D on December 22, 2015, 03:29:46 PM
I'm going to sound really old here  🙁 But OMG I am really old!! Nearly 30 

But, as far as I know, in the bad old days we were either transsexuals seeking surgery or cross-dressers who put on pantomime frocks on a Saturday night. I know that wasn't true and thankfully we've moved on to a much better place, yet for me I think something of the essence of who we are (or who I am) has been lost in the gender furore.

I think that, as a full transsexual, we've somehow got ourselves stuck in this weird hinterland where there's some effort to push sex out of the mix and focus purely on a social construct - gender.

Gender is, I would say but you don't have to agree, made up whereas sexual characteristics are innate. To be plain: my sexual exterior doesn't match, in places, my sexual mind, soul and spirit. I am a woman but I've been lumbered by cruel accident with a few non-woman bits. Those can be removed and reformed into something better  😉 I don't mind males but I get on far better with women, they are my friends and my support network and my more favoured colleagues. How feminine they are is irrelevant; they range from completely butch lesbians and bikers to glam up girls who won't leave the house without eyeliner!!  🙂 The common factor is female-ness, if that's a thing, rather than femininity? I mean, I don't think a socially constructed idea of a woman makes a woman! For example drag queens aren't women. Men in dresses (not being controversial, I just mean that literally lol!!) aren't women.

Which leaves gender, to me the invented concept. It helps us to act out our particular roles but it doesn't define our sex. Men can wear make up and boys can play with dolls but they remain male. Male and female, I think, are ways of being and thinking - not which colour or shape your clothes are.

I'll stop there before I trip over my feminist soap box  😉 But I know that some of my ideas are old fashioned and perhaps not fully there with queer theory and stuff? I mean for me gender isn't important. I don't think society is going to be massively altered by women putting on overalls. The change would happen when she goes off to get them dirty in a factory somewhere. I don't want gender to define who I am, not really. I do, differently to that, want my sex to be seen correctly. xx

I like your point of view, Missy.  I share it, by and large. 

Gender identity has been talked about in so many contexts that it's lost its meaning.  Personally, I find it easier to frame the gender issue in terms of sexual identity – whether one identifies as male or female.  Yes, that's back to acknowledging the binary gender paradigm, but I find that people can relate to that easier than they can an all inclusive gender spectrum.  Social change comes in fits and starts.

Even though I'm XY genetically, I identify as female.  I use gender expression to highlight my femaleness.  I don't believe that gender expression can substitute for sexual identity.  A cross dresser or drag queen may mimic the look of a woman, but he doesn't claim to be female.  Sexual identity is hard to fake.   Most people sense maleness vs femaleness in others with little difficulty regardless of their presentation.

When I stop and think about why that is, I have to believe that it stems from physiological differences in the sexes which cannot easily be masked by gender presentation.  I'm not referring strictly to physical anatomy or the presence of secondary sex characteristics, although they usually produce strong first impressions.  It's how a person perceives and projects their sexual identity.  It's how hormonal balance changes the workings of the brain which is then reflected in social mannerisms, attitudes, emotional responses, preferences, etc.  All of these things come together to signal which side of the sexual divide one prefers to be.  This goes beyond simply "passing" as a woman.

Sexual identity is not the same as sexual orientation.  A butch lesbian still projects femaleness, and an effeminate gay man still projects maleness.  A trans woman, despite being genetically male, will in the course of time project femaleness to those who know her even if her gender presentation is not stereotypically feminine, e.g. Julia Serano.

I think the reason many of us trans woman work hard on our gender presentation, is that we want our femaleness to be assumed by people, even those who don't know us personally.  It makes life more comfortable.  When I get dressed and put on my makeup, fix my hair and look at myself in the mirror, I'm pleased about my appearance because I know that the world is going to see me for the female that I identify as, and I know that I will be treated as a female.  I want that overlap.  I want people to see me as I see and know myself.

If female identity is not there, no amount of feminine gender expression is going to mask the truth.  Maleness leaks through the facade little by little, or in a torrent, depending on the ability of the man to mimic femaleness.  I've yet to meet the man who can do it.  This fact lies at the heart of the bathroom/ locker room controversy that is all the news these days.  When is a woman a woman?  Is it gender expression that decides?  The laws in my state say yes.  I'm saying that it goes much, much deeper than that.

People have gender identity, the anatomy, the gender expression etc. etc. These things are difference.

Gender identity/gender brain structure = That's which gender the person identify himself/herself as. A trans woman example identify herself as a woman, but that doesn't mean she have to follow the feminine gender roles. A trans woman can love masculine hobbies, wear macho clothes and be masculine. All women can still be a woman no matter they are trans or not and no matter they are masculine or feminine. Gender brain structure is the human's nature and it's not learned.

Gender dysphoria = Gender dysphoria is discomfort a transsexual person can experience, because their bodies doesn't match their true gender. They can have it and gender roles doesn't always affect it. Gender dysphoria is mainly about their bodies, and not about gender roles. Gender dysphoria can make the person depressed and he/she can get anxiety. Gender dysphoria is very common for transsexual. But not everybody experience it.

Gender roles = Gender roles are about hobbies, clothes, culture etc. That's learned. But gender identity and gender dysphoria isn't learned, that's natural.

Sex/Sex organs = That's the anatomy or what you have been assigned at birth. It's simply what's between your legs. It's not the same as gender.

So here you have the definitions. PS! Remember, everybody is difference and have difference experience. This is the explaining of the general, and not everybody are the same.